Well Pump Control Box

[truck41trouble]

I'm troubleshooting a 1hp well control box for a customer, new installation and pump won't start. I am wondering about this QD relay as it's called. It has 3 connections, one to the capacitor ( red) for the start winding. One blue( line voltage in) and black ( load) to the run winding. Yellow is common. With the cover off I am getting continuity between blue and black, when I believe I should be getting continuity between blue and red to power the start winding. Does anyone know about these relays, or if the switch automatically when power is applied?
I tested the capacitor with my meter and keep getting an O.L which can mean either the cap is bad or fully charged. But I'm still wondering about this relay.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[ActionDave]

That relay drops out the start winding on the pump motor. They are electronic so there is no easy way to test out on the bench. You can plug the thing in, put power to the pump and put your amp clamp one of the circuit conductors and see if the motor is getting any power.

Since this is a new installation I would be looking somewhere else for the problem. The relays and caps do wear out, but not as often as other parts in the system.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Pressure Switch working?
Is that cover fully seated , Ive seen them loose and they wont work.

 

[Galt]

I absolutely despise that control box . You can't diagnose anything cause you have to put the cover on to make it work.

 

[Galt]

carefully discharge the cap with a screwdriver if it sparks it is good if not you still have to test it but now you know it is discharged.

 

[GoldDigger]

Use an amp clamp to measure current in main and starter winding. That will tell you a lot, I think.

 

[Cow]

Did you supply the pump controller?

If it's new and the voltage to the controller is correct, I'd have the customer call whoever installed that to check it under warranty.

 

[MTW]

Here is a link to the manual. Troubleshooting section starts on page 53.

Voltage sensing relay description from page 13

QD Relays (Solid State)
There are two elements in the relay: a reed switch and a triac. The reed switch consists
of two tiny rectangular blade-type contacts, which bend under magnetic flux. It is
hermetically sealed in glass and is located within a coil, which conducts line current.
When power is supplied to the control box, the main winding current passing through
the coil immediately closes the reed switch contacts. This turns on the triac, which
supplies voltage to the start winding, thus starting the motor.

Once the motor is started, the operation of the QD relay is an interaction between the
triac, the reed switch, and the motor windings. The solid state switch senses motor
speed through the changing phase relationship between start winding current and line
current. As the motor approaches running speed, the phase angle between the start
current and the line current becomes nearly in phase. At this point, the reed switch
contacts open, turning off the triac. This removes voltage from the start winding and
the motor continues to run on the main winding only. With the reed switch contacts
open and the triac turned off, the QD relay is ready for the next starting cycle.

http://www.franklinwater.com/media/110562/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_12-14-WEB.pdf

And if your a video guy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UXZnyVr9PI

 

[GoldDigger]

Had a problem with a similar pump controller working intermittently and finally took it to a pump service guy who plugged it into a known working test system in his shop. Turned out it was fine. The problem was the 240V disconnect switch upstream that had one pole intermittently hanging open. So when each time I opened the disconnect to open the controller to troubleshoot there was about a 50% chance it would not work after I put it back together.

 

[Galt]

carefully discharge the cap with a screwdriver if it sparks it is good if not you still have to test it but now you know it is discharged.

 

[ptonsparky]

Use your meter or a low impedance tester to discharge the capacitor. IDKN if the the screwdriver method causes damage to the cap, but does the screwdriver.

 

[truck41trouble]

Thanks for all the help guys. I did not supply the pump, casing wiring or the control box. I did the underground run from the building to the well head and wired up the pressure switch. A big thanks also for that troubleshooting manual, that can come in handy. I ended up calling it quits for the day yesterday, as it's not a high priority job. I am inclined to think it's the capacitor, since all the wiring to and from the well head seems to test ok. So for 16 bucks I'm getting the capacitor in today and that will determine weather we pull the pump.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[steve66]

If you think the cap might be charged, put your DC voltmeter across it and see if you measure any voltage. If not, its not charged, or you have just discharged it.

If its a fairly large cap (I'm assuming it is), when you put a ohmmeter across it, you should see fairly low resistance that keeps climbing as the cap charges.

 

[Dzboyce]

If this is a new pump and a new control box, the odds of a component in the QD control box being bad are less than 1%. A complete new QD box costs $51. How much time can you waste troubleshooting a fifty dollar component. It takes a minute to slap a new one on. If that doesn’t solve it, the prob,em is elsewhere.

99% chance something is misswired, or there is a bad connection. Use your megger to check all wiring.

 

[Barbqranch]

I have this setup at my house. When the control went dead, I replaced it but also used the male and female connectors to make a jumper to go between the fixed enclosure and the cover with the components. That way, if I ever need to trouble shoot it again, I can do so with it open but connected.

 

[Russs57]

Current readings will tell you the most. That qd relay is like what is used on refrigerator compressors. See if you are pulling close to locked rotor amps on both start and run leads. When they go they often damage the cap. You want replacement to match motor exactly.

No experience with the solid state version of current relay like you have. I can tell you the regular ones have to be mounted in the correct position.

 

[truck41trouble]

Well me and the homeowner ended up pulling the pump this morning and found bad connections at the pump. Most notably on the start winding connection , which would explain why I was getting proper readings at the well head. That solid state qd relay is actually controlled by Reed switches and a triac like the troubleshooting manual states. The damaged conductor also took out the capacitor which is why I was getting bad readings on that. I'm not a well guy, but if its electrical related I'd say I'm as qualified or more qualified than them to diagnose and repair. All in all pulling up 170' of well line wasnt as bad as I would have imagined...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[ptonsparky]

Well me and the homeowner ended up pulling the pump this morning and found bad connections at the pump. Most notably on the start winding connection , which would explain why I was getting proper readings at the well head. That solid state qd relay is actually controlled by Reed switches and a triac like the troubleshooting manual states. The damaged conductor also took out the capacitor which is why I was getting bad readings on that. I'm not a well guy, but if its electrical related I'd say I'm as qualified or more qualified than them to diagnose and repair. All in all pulling up 170' of well line wasnt as bad as I would have imagined...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

In good old NE, the fines for touching anything down that hole or even opening it are way worse than unlicensed electrical work.
The home owner has some leeway.

 

[truck41trouble]

In good old NE, the fines for touching anything down that hole or even opening it are way worse than unlicensed electrical work.
The home owner has some leeway.

To the extent that I'm aware of we don't have anything like that in NY. I am a licensed electrician, I actually hold multiple licenses in Ny NJ and Pa since I'm right in the tri state. As far as I'm concerned the connections are the electricians responsibility. Here's the union side of me coming out, but if we aren't allowed to touch the well, then electricians should be present to make the connections when setting the pump.

I don't mean to kill the messenger, sorry. That's just my 2 cents, or 1 cent.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[ptonsparky]

To the extent that I'm aware of we don't have anything like that in NY. I am a licensed electrician, I actually hold multiple licenses in Ny NJ and Pa since I'm right in the tri state. As far as I'm concerned the connections are the electricians responsibility. Here's the union side of me coming out, but if we aren't allowed to touch the well, then electricians should be present to make the connections when setting the pump.

I don't mean to kill the messenger, sorry. That's just my 2 cents, or 1 cent.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Not killing me at all. Just the way it is here.