Well Pump issues

[Electrical893]

I recently encountered the following situation;
(Which has a number of things to consider)
My education and experience tell me there are real safety concerns, and potential for costly equipment failure if corrections are not made.
I have encountered some opinions which seem to think there is less worry about the need for correction(s) than mine.

I am always open to listen to others point of view, and the chance to learn. I welcome educated, thoughtful, and respectful opinions.
Thank you.

Residential/Agricultural
(All wiring approx. 15 years old)

200 Amp Main Breaker Service Panel - (located in the house

4/0 Aluminum URD underground Service Lateral from pad mounted Transformer 210 feet away.

Well Head located 450 feet from Service Panel (in house basement).
Pressure Tank and Controller are all located at the Well)
Branch Circuit feed to Well (450') is #6/3 URD protected by 40/2 Circuit Breaker in Main Panel.
(At the Well) - there is a 30/2 Disconnect Switch with 30 Amp Screw Fuses) where the #6/3 Aluminum URD terminates.

Notes:
Well depth: estimated 100 - 150 ft.
Pump Motor; no nameplate found,
Start-up Amps were @ 11 (+-)
Running Amps were @ 9 (+-)
THE WATER LINE TO THE HOUSE IS PLASTIC

ISSUES AND CONCERRNS;

In the Main Service Panel - (The 6/3 URD);
One of the Hot (black) wires is disconnected, and (at the 40/2 Breaker; the Ground (yellow striped) wire is being used as the second Hot Wire.

AT THE WELL:
(Same as at the Service Panel) - one black wires disconnected, and the Yellow-striped ground is used as the 2nd Hot.
Thus: there is no Ground wire (coming from the house) terminated in the 30 amp disconnect. The only wire terminated in the Ground Bar in the disconnect - is an insulated green wire coming from the controller. There is no Bond Wire to the Metal case of the disconnect either.

OBVIOUSLY: It appears one of the Hot Conductors in the buried # 6/3 Aluminum URD was damaged and is unusable, and someone disconnected it and substituted it by using the Equipment Ground Conductor)

Question #1
Does not having a Ground wire from the house;
(In the case of a short-circuit, or ground-fault)
Create a potential Safety concern?
(By risk of Electric Shock)

Question #2
Does not having a Ground wire from the house;
(In the case of short-circuit, or Ground-fault)
Create the risk of Equipment failure?
(By burning up the pump motor - if the Ground-fault path through earth & water is not sufficient to trip the breaker (450 ft away)
Or, will the 30 amp screw fuses in the disconnect be sufficient?

Question #3
Because there is no Ground wire from the house)
Does the substantial distance;
Increase the potential of Electrical Shock, or Pump failure?

Question #4
Considering the distance, and no Ground wire from the house;
"If" the Conductors from the house are insufficient (i.e. undersized):
Is there an increase in potential for Electrical shock or equipment failure were there short-circuit or ground-fault ?

The premise for these questions comes from discussions where some seem to have the position of view that fixing (installing a ground from the house panel to the Well) is not that big of a concern because:
The steel Well pipe (down the well & into groundwater) is fantastic ground, and therefore the breaker will trip.

My personal opinion is as such;
I think the "current" situation poses both;
Risk of electric shock, and potential equipment (pump) failure, because;
The lack of a ground wire, distance, (and likely) improper conductor size), may result in circuit breaker delaying to trip, or not trip at all, resulting in possible injury, and/or expensive pump replacement.

Combined, all three concerns increase the potential for trouble.
*note; "if" the water line was copper (or steel) and, it was bonded to the Well head, and all metal part of electrical equipment at the Well, AND all Grounding Electrode Conductors at the Main Service Panel; I would certainly be less concerned about having an equipment ground wire with the circuit from the house out to the Well, however the water line is plastic, making that point moot.

I believe the underground wire from the house to the Well should be replaced (with a growing wire) properly sized considering voltage drop for the substantial distance.

Summarizing;
The existing situation has the Well pipe (in conjunction with the earth and groundwater) being used as an equipment ground / potential short-circuit, ground-fault path which may be hazardous / insufficient / costly.
A ground conductor from the Service panel (which is bonded to the grounding electrode system - at the Service), bonded to the metal enclosures (and the Well pipe) will provide the safest and best path to properly trip the beaker and open the circuit in case of a short-circuit or ground-fault.

Where water lines from the Well are installed in plastic; the Well pipe should NOT be used as a ground. (Instead); exposed metal Well pipe, electrical equipment, enclosures, etc should be bonded / grounded) together.

Obviously, replacing the wire would be the best thing to do, but given the significant amount of materials and labor involved, I want to present the most solid of reasons and arguement for doing so. Thank you for your time.

 

[ptonsparky]

First, make sure the owners know they have a potentially deadly situation.

It’s up to you if you want to also tell them that they aren’t the only ones operating on two wires. We used to see it all the time.

Have someone locate the fault, and pay attention as you watch them. Expose the fault and test for another before repairing the first. That size wire and distance involved would have me putting in new conduit with a 4 wire feeder if there was more than one faulted spot. Especially so if the existing was buried down 4-5 feet with the water line.

The equipment is available and fairly simple to use. Digging down to the wire may be the worst part of the job. Usually is.

and update the panel at the well house along with a GES.

 

[jumper]

Code requires an EGC so simply tell them some of the proper sections.

110.3(B), 250.4(A)(4) and (5), 250.112(L), etc.

Then either fix or replace.

 

[jumper]

First, make sure the owners know they have a potentially deadly situation.

It’s up to you if you want to also tell them that they aren’t the only ones operating on two wires. We used to see it all the time.

Have someone locate the fault, and pay attention as you watch them. Expose the fault and test for another before repairing the first. That size wire and distance involved would have me putting in new conduit with a 4 wire feeder if there was more than one faulted spot. Especially so if the existing was buried down 4-5 feet with the water line.

The equipment is available and fairly simple to use. Digging down to the wire may be the worst part of the job. Usually is.

and update the panel at the well house along with a GES.

There is no panel, fused disco switch. No need for 4 wire feed or a GES at well head.

 

[Cow]

First, make sure the owners know they have a potentially deadly situation.

It’s up to you if you want to also tell them that they aren’t the only ones operating on two wires. We used to see it all the time.

Have someone locate the fault, and pay attention as you watch them. Expose the fault and test for another before repairing the first. That size wire and distance involved would have me putting in new conduit with a 4 wire feeder if there was more than one faulted spot. Especially so if the existing was buried down 4-5 feet with the water line.

The equipment is available and fairly simple to use. Digging down to the wire may be the worst part of the job. Usually is.

and update the panel at the well house along with a GES.

Tom is right on with his advice, this is how to do it.

 

[jumper]

Tom is right on with his advice, this is how to do it.

I agree with what Tom said, except for the panel part.

No panel or 4 wire or GES needed.

If the switch needs replaced, I would but just because it is screw in fuses does necessarily mean automatic replace.

 

[Cow]

I agree with what Tom said, except for the panel part.

No panel or 4 wire or GES needed.

If the switch needs replaced, I would but just because it is screw in fuses does necessarily mean automatic replace.

How can you be sure?

When I read "pressure tank" in the quote below, I've only seen those indoors. I'm assuming this pressure tank and controller are indoors, which means separate structure.

I'd run a 4 wire feeder like mentioned above, install a small sub(they're cheap), because more often than not, most folks eventually want to put some sort of light and heat source in the building and I usually see them tapped off the ground if a neutral isn't available, and they are usually cascaded off the well pump disconnect terminals if a small panel isn't available either.

Well Head located 450 feet from Service Panel (in house basement).
Pressure Tank and Controller are all located at the Well)
e.

 

[ptonsparky]

How can you be sure?

When I read "pressure tank" in the quote below, I've only seen those indoors. I'm assuming this pressure tank and controller are indoors, which means separate structure.

I'd run a 4 wire feeder like mentioned above, install a small sub(they're cheap), because more often than not, most folks eventually want to put some sort of light and heat source in the building and I usually see them tapped off the ground if a neutral isn't available, and they are usually cascaded off the well pump disconnect terminals if a small panel isn't available either.

:thumbsup: Exactly why.

 

[kwired]

How can you be sure?

When I read "pressure tank" in the quote below, I've only seen those indoors. I'm assuming this pressure tank and controller are indoors, which means separate structure.

I'd run a 4 wire feeder like mentioned above, install a small sub(they're cheap), because more often than not, most folks eventually want to put some sort of light and heat source in the building and I usually see them tapped off the ground if a neutral isn't available, and they are usually cascaded off the well pump disconnect terminals if a small panel isn't available either.

Separate structure supplied by a single branch circuit does not need a panel and a GES. Good design considers the fact someone will want to utilize power for something else at such a location though.

There are pressure tanks that are incorporated into the well casing or pitless adapter and are below grade.

 

[kwired]

Question #1
Does not having a Ground wire from the house;
(In the case of a short-circuit, or ground-fault)
Create a potential Safety concern?
(By risk of Electric Shock)

Yes, no low resistance path back to the source allows non current carrying conductive objects to become energized because there is not enough current flow to open overcurrent devices.

Question #2
Does not having a Ground wire from the house;
(In the case of short-circuit, or Ground-fault)
Create the risk of Equipment failure?
(By burning up the pump motor - if the Ground-fault path through earth & water is not sufficient to trip the breaker (450 ft away)
Or, will the 30 amp screw fuses in the disconnect be sufficient?

Does not increase risk of equipment failure, does lead to conditions mentioned in question 1 when there is a failure though.

Question #3
Because there is no Ground wire from the house)
Does the substantial distance;
Increase the potential of Electrical Shock, or Pump failure?

No, short distance doesn't really decrease anything either. Impedance of the fault return path is what matters the most. If you have a 25 ohm impedance with 120 volts being faulted to ground - you only get 4.8 amps of current flow. This will not matter if that current has to travel 2 feet or 300 feet 25 ohms is 25 ohms. One install may have different values then the next, but resistance is almost always significantly high enough when depending on earth as a return path.

Question #4
Considering the distance, and no Ground wire from the house;
"If" the Conductors from the house are insufficient (i.e. undersized):
Is there an increase in potential for Electrical shock or equipment failure were there short-circuit or ground-fault ?

Again low impedance is the most important factor. Sure smaller conductors will have current limiting effects and may make overcurrent protection respond a little slower, but a solid conductor still has much lower resistance than most grounding electrodes will ever have.

The premise for these questions comes from discussions where some seem to have the position of view that fixing (installing a ground from the house panel to the Well) is not that big of a concern because:
The steel Well pipe (down the well & into groundwater) is fantastic ground, and therefore the breaker will trip.

If there is a metallic water pipe run to the house and is bonded to the electrical grounding system, that can become an alternate low resistance path, but an otherwise isolated steel well casing is not likely to have low enough resistance to carry enough current to allow overcurrent protection to open the circuit under fault to casing conditions.

I agree with much of what you mentioned at end of your post:

My personal opinion is as such;
I think the "current" situation poses both;
Risk of electric shock, and potential equipment (pump) failure, because;
The lack of a ground wire, distance, (and likely) improper conductor size), may result in circuit breaker delaying to trip, or not trip at all, resulting in possible injury, and/or expensive pump replacement.

Combined, all three concerns increase the potential for trouble.
*note; "if" the water line was copper (or steel) and, it was bonded to the Well head, and all metal part of electrical equipment at the Well, AND all Grounding Electrode Conductors at the Main Service Panel; I would certainly be less concerned about having an equipment ground wire with the circuit from the house out to the Well, however the water line is plastic, making that point moot.

I believe the underground wire from the house to the Well should be replaced (with a growing wire) properly sized considering voltage drop for the substantial distance.

Summarizing;
The existing situation has the Well pipe (in conjunction with the earth and groundwater) being used as an equipment ground / potential short-circuit, ground-fault path which may be hazardous / insufficient / costly.
A ground conductor from the Service panel (which is bonded to the grounding electrode system - at the Service), bonded to the metal enclosures (and the Well pipe) will provide the safest and best path to properly trip the beaker and open the circuit in case of a short-circuit or ground-fault.

Where water lines from the Well are installed in plastic; the Well pipe should NOT be used as a ground. (Instead); exposed metal Well pipe, electrical equipment, enclosures, etc should be bonded / grounded) together.

Obviously, replacing the wire would be the best thing to do, but given the significant amount of materials and labor involved, I want to present the most solid of reasons and arguement for doing so. Thank you for your time.

[/QUOTE]

 

[jumper]

Separate structure supplied by a single branch circuit does not need a panel and a GES. Good design considers the fact someone will want to utilize power for something else at such a location though.

There are pressure tanks that are incorporated into the well casing or pitless adapter and are below grade.

Yep. I am not against an upgrade, better design, or installing what is needed, but I was going with code minimum and safety with my points.