Wet Locations

[hyattjay]

I am having a rather deep dive discussion with a non-electrical engineer regarding NEC wet locations:
"where exposed to weather" is one of the specific definitions I recall in defining a wet location.

In our discussion, I pointed out that an aerial installation (on a messenger or not) would be or could be defined as a wet location.
Further on in the conversation, it was asked if a TC-ER cable listed for aerial installation, though not specifically indicated for use in a wet location is contradictory, since by the listing as tray rated, exposed or extended run or in an aerial install, the cable would or could be exposed to weather. Since the cable maybe listed for use in direct sunlight, is moisture resistant and chemically resistant and listed for aerial installation, how does one determine the suitability of wet vs. dry locations? Where is the line?

What if the manufacturer states, dry locations, and also states aerial installation, and suitable for all approved raceways, no direct burial?

I reviewed Article 336.10(c) and ticked positive or compliant for all of the applicable aspects for 336.10 (1) through (7) a. through g, (8), (9), the exceptions and (10) - based on our hypothetical cable type (UL listed TC-ER, dry locations, 90C, Fire resistant - 2hrs @2000F + other flame test, sunlight, moisture, chemically resistant, installed in cable tray & RMC, no direct burial or aerial aspects of the installation, industrial area serviced by qualified personnel only, no public access - highly controlled site, cable not exposed to physical damage and fully supported every 6ft.)

Thoughts, comments? Is my point all wet? (no pun intended.)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I would require the cable to be marked as sunlight resistant and either direct burial or wet locations. The difference between the direct burial and wet location marking has to do with the crush resistance of the cable, a greater crush resistance is required for direct burial cables than for wet location cables. Both direct burial and wet location cables require that the conductors have an insulation suitable for use in wet locations.

Note that I would also require those markings where the cable is installed in outside cable tray.

Not sure where the manufacture is getting the aerial installation details from as I don't see that in UL 1277.

For the record, I have never seen any TC cable that was not marked for direct burial..I am sure it exists, but I have never come across it.

 

[hyattjay]

Good points, though if the manufacture states suitable for aerial use and suitable for exposed/extended runs in cable, is sunlight resistant, moisture resistant and resistant to chemicals, does that mean, exposed to weather? - which per NEC definition as a wet location.

I have seen some TC-ER cable that does not have a direct burial marking on the jacket, though is rated for wet/dry, aerial, tray, raceways, direct burial - the marking may only be "Sunlight resistant, 90C, TC-ER and then the size/number of conductors", some TC cable data sheets state, "continuous operation at 90C, indoor/outdoor installations, aerially, ducts, conduit, cable tray, or direct burial" - though the wet locations is not mentioned or indicated - outdoor and aerially pretty much cover the exposed to weather definition and the cable maybe are available as TC-ER or the TC-ER rating applies to cables w/3 or more conductors. Others (a TC-ER cable for example) may state explicitly approved for continuous operation at 90C in wet/dry locations. The caveat I suppose is if the cable is TC or TC-ER listed.

Though the question remains; if aerially installed or as an exposed run in cable tray, does this not imply exposed to weather and thus is a wet environment?

As a rule, for nearly all of the projects I do design on, TC-ER cable is specified or selected, in some cases a more robust, flame resistance/fire resistant cable is selected, though must be TC-ER listed as well and usually from a single cable manufacturer (Okonite, Houston Wire, Belden, Southern Wire and more often than not the clients have a preferred cable manufacturer.)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Good points, though if the manufacture states suitable for aerial use and suitable for exposed/extended runs in cable, is sunlight resistant, moisture resistant and resistant to chemicals, does that mean, exposed to weather? - which per NEC definition as a wet location.

I have seen some TC-ER cable that does not have a direct burial marking on the jacket, though is rated for wet/dry, aerial, tray, raceways, direct burial - the marking may only be "Sunlight resistant, 90C, TC-ER and then the size/number of conductors", some TC cable data sheets state, "continuous operation at 90C, indoor/outdoor installations, aerially, ducts, conduit, cable tray, or direct burial" - though the wet locations is not mentioned or indicated - outdoor and aerially pretty much cover the exposed to weather definition and the cable maybe are available as TC-ER or the TC-ER rating applies to cables w/3 or more conductors. Others (a TC-ER cable for example) may state explicitly approved for continuous operation at 90C in wet/dry locations. The caveat I suppose is if the cable is TC or TC-ER listed.

Though the question remains; if aerially installed or as an exposed run in cable tray, does this not imply exposed to weather and thus is a wet environment?

As a rule, for nearly all of the projects I do design on, TC-ER cable is specified or selected, in some cases a more robust, flame resistance/fire resistant cable is selected, though must be TC-ER listed as well and usually from a single cable manufacturer (Okonite, Houston Wire, Belden, Southern Wire and more often than not the clients have a preferred cable manufacturer.)

I do not see a moisture resistant rating as being equal to a wet location...I would need to see ether a wet location marking or a direct burial marking on the cable for me to permit it to be installed in a wet location.

Assuming the aerial run or the cable tray is outside, that is a wet location.

 

[hyattjay]

NEC 336.10 (8) "Where installed in wet locations, Type TC cable shall also be resistant to moisture and corrosive agents." - to my knowledge it is not required for a cable to be marked for wet locations if the cable is a listed TC-ER type cable. In fact, many TC-ER cables I specify are not marked wet/dry locations, etc., many, if not all are marked TC-ER 90DegC, sunlight resistant.
Our hypothetical is sunlight resistant, moisture and chemically (corrosive) resistant.
And again, that is not the question.
"Though the question remains; if aerially installed or as an exposed run in cable tray, does this not imply exposed to weather and thus is a wet environment?"

 

[don_resqcapt19]

NEC 336.10 (8) "Where installed in wet locations, Type TC cable shall also be resistant to moisture and corrosive agents." - to my knowledge it is not required for a cable to be marked for wet locations if the cable is a listed TC-ER type cable. In fact, many TC-ER cables I specify are not marked wet/dry locations, etc., many, if not all are marked TC-ER 90DegC, sunlight resistant.
Our hypothetical is sunlight resistant, moisture and chemically (corrosive) resistant.
And again, that is not the question.
"Though the question remains; if aerially installed or as an exposed run in cable tray, does this not imply exposed to weather and thus is a wet environment?"

There is no marking for "resistant to moisture" in the product standard. The only thing I will look at is the markings on the cable that are required by the product standard. Without a jacket marking, I have no idea of what environment the cable has been listed for.

 

[hyattjay]

Cable specifications and or datasheets are where I look for suitability.
Did I get the quote from 336.10 (8) incorrect?

Our hypothetical cable manufacturer has stated the cable is suitable for aerial installation, sunlight resistant, moisture resistant and resistant to chemicals.

Again, the question as stated: "if aerially installed or as an exposed run in cable tray, does this not imply exposed to weather and thus is a wet environment?"

No offense to those who have replied, the question has not been argued, discussed or answered.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is a cable is run outside then it is exposed to weather and is considered a wet location. Even cable run thru emt or other raceways must be rated wet location if the raceway is exposed to the elements.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Cable specifications and or datasheets are where I look for suitability.
Did I get the quote from 336.10 (8) incorrect?

Our hypothetical cable manufacturer has stated the cable is suitable for aerial installation, sunlight resistant, moisture resistant and resistant to chemicals.

Again, the question as stated: "if aerially installed or as an exposed run in cable tray, does this not imply exposed to weather and thus is a wet environment?"

No offense to those who have replied, the question has not been argued, discussed or answered.

I am sorry you don't understand my comments...your questions have been answered. Have a nice day.