What CAD tools do you use when preparing the Shop Drawings?
- Thread starter wus2000
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cadpoint
Senior Member
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- Durham, NC
I don't know what BIM is!
I just thought that you could create a cloud block and pattern againest any desired or required changes. This creates a required Rev. notation. for the title block.
I to do not understand why the requirement of high end packages unless there is material count addition or subtraction through the high end software with some sort of database interface? !
My thought is that in 90% of the cases, drawing aren't released to contractors with any smartness about them(via databases). The 10% where this is required, the products would have already been mandated by contractual requirements.
I just thought that you could create a cloud block and pattern againest any desired or required changes. This creates a required Rev. notation. for the title block.
I to do not understand why the requirement of high end packages unless there is material count addition or subtraction through the high end software with some sort of database interface? !
My thought is that in 90% of the cases, drawing aren't released to contractors with any smartness about them(via databases). The 10% where this is required, the products would have already been mandated by contractual requirements.
BIM means Building Information Model. That is the 3D Model of the building sevice system, showing what the building will be in the design procedure.
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
Ok again why, is it contractural, or they want to see what you know? The difference is marginal , IMO, the fact that they want you to reflect thier design changes or lack of a proper install seems amiss, JMO...
If you have a BIM requirement then REVIT works really well. However there is a mean learning curve for it and and the BIM process can add $20k to $40k to your job cost depending on the project size. Although it is being sold as a way to save money, the upfront costs are steep.
Getting Started:
Revit- $6k (AutoCAD MEP comes free as part of the package).
Computer that will run it- $2.5k
Laptop for meetings- $2.5K
Learning curve- 2-3 months of your designer's time (or hire an intern)
Plotter for shop drawings- $1,500
Navis Works Manage- $11,000 (Required on some BIM jobs, but can sometimes be leased, talk to your reseller.)
Navis Works Freedom- Free but limited functionality.
GoToMeeing- $50 a month.
Draw backs:
BIM manager for the project may be an idiot in which case this is just a pointless exercise.
Mechanical contractor may use specialized software that will not import into REVIT.
Fire Protection contractor will probably use HydroCAD which will import but is big and slow.
The good part:
Revit after you learn it is a much better program than AutoCAD, but it comes with one hell of a learning curve. However I am seeing more and more jobs that the native files are REVIT, and being able to play with the big boys is a plus.
It is a feather in your cap, if you can do BIM and demonstrate it does help acquire work. I landed two recent contracts that I would not have gotten without my BIM job portfolio/pedigree.
If done right you can plan out everything down to hanger locations and get a lot of your work in ahead of the other trades. IF IF IF the GC backs you up and enforces the BIM layout, you will get paid for rework cause by other trades not playing by the rules.
Note:
AutoCAD-2012 will do 3d work too and a lot of the same things, I just found REVIT worth the time investment and I did not have a lot of work when I started playing around with it.
Getting Started:
Revit- $6k (AutoCAD MEP comes free as part of the package).
Computer that will run it- $2.5k
Laptop for meetings- $2.5K
Learning curve- 2-3 months of your designer's time (or hire an intern)
Plotter for shop drawings- $1,500
Navis Works Manage- $11,000 (Required on some BIM jobs, but can sometimes be leased, talk to your reseller.)
Navis Works Freedom- Free but limited functionality.
GoToMeeing- $50 a month.
Draw backs:
BIM manager for the project may be an idiot in which case this is just a pointless exercise.
Mechanical contractor may use specialized software that will not import into REVIT.
Fire Protection contractor will probably use HydroCAD which will import but is big and slow.
The good part:
Revit after you learn it is a much better program than AutoCAD, but it comes with one hell of a learning curve. However I am seeing more and more jobs that the native files are REVIT, and being able to play with the big boys is a plus.
It is a feather in your cap, if you can do BIM and demonstrate it does help acquire work. I landed two recent contracts that I would not have gotten without my BIM job portfolio/pedigree.
If done right you can plan out everything down to hanger locations and get a lot of your work in ahead of the other trades. IF IF IF the GC backs you up and enforces the BIM layout, you will get paid for rework cause by other trades not playing by the rules.
Note:
AutoCAD-2012 will do 3d work too and a lot of the same things, I just found REVIT worth the time investment and I did not have a lot of work when I started playing around with it.
A few more things to look out for:
1) Make sure your deliverables are clearly defined in your contract, ie what size conduit will be modeled, typically anything less than 1.5" is not modeled unless it is part of a rack, then the whole rack is modeled.
2) Be weary of REVIT asbuilts, try to keep your asbuilts in 2d form. There is way too much liability in 3D asbuilts.
3) Look out for Vella or other O&M requirements that mean lots of your labor doing data entry to make the models interactive in NAVIS. Its a nice product for the GC to turn over to the owner, but it costs you lots of money to make the GC look good for something they don't want to pay you for.
4) Be clear you are only modeling electrical work, the GC will try to push the work of weaker subs and architectural models onto your plate.
5) If the native contract documents are in DWG, the designers will expect you to do DWG exports for them. This is the BIM manager's job, not yours.
6) The designers will also waste lots of your time doing "what if" layouts and shop drawings when things don't fit. Be ready to put out a good faith effort, then say no when they ask too much...and they WILL.
7) Always manage the expectations of the GC on how much you will do, they will ask for far far more than is fair.
8) No matter what the GC says, the designers say or what native format your contract documents are in, they are not as coordinated as they claim and you will have lots of work to do to fix them. Get familiar with AIA document E202- 2008 then read LOD-100 thru LOD-500 and what they really mean, because I have not met and architect yet who knows with LOD-300 is, although they claim their drawings are 100% there.
Linky Here: http://www.pat.ca/files/pdfs/AIA_091708_E202-2008_eSample_Blank.pdf
1) Make sure your deliverables are clearly defined in your contract, ie what size conduit will be modeled, typically anything less than 1.5" is not modeled unless it is part of a rack, then the whole rack is modeled.
2) Be weary of REVIT asbuilts, try to keep your asbuilts in 2d form. There is way too much liability in 3D asbuilts.
3) Look out for Vella or other O&M requirements that mean lots of your labor doing data entry to make the models interactive in NAVIS. Its a nice product for the GC to turn over to the owner, but it costs you lots of money to make the GC look good for something they don't want to pay you for.
4) Be clear you are only modeling electrical work, the GC will try to push the work of weaker subs and architectural models onto your plate.
5) If the native contract documents are in DWG, the designers will expect you to do DWG exports for them. This is the BIM manager's job, not yours.
6) The designers will also waste lots of your time doing "what if" layouts and shop drawings when things don't fit. Be ready to put out a good faith effort, then say no when they ask too much...and they WILL.
7) Always manage the expectations of the GC on how much you will do, they will ask for far far more than is fair.
8) No matter what the GC says, the designers say or what native format your contract documents are in, they are not as coordinated as they claim and you will have lots of work to do to fix them. Get familiar with AIA document E202- 2008 then read LOD-100 thru LOD-500 and what they really mean, because I have not met and architect yet who knows with LOD-300 is, although they claim their drawings are 100% there.
Linky Here: http://www.pat.ca/files/pdfs/AIA_091708_E202-2008_eSample_Blank.pdf
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