what code reference?

[pa electrician]

Gentlemen, I wanted to know if anyone can please provide me with the code reference number for the following...
I am working on a branch curcuit. It is a lighting circuit. It is all #12 AWG type NM (Romex).
However I wired the bathroom exhaust fan with a #14 AWG whip (3 feet long). And I wired the bathroom fixture to the fan. It is only 1.5 amps total on that branch of the circuit.
The fan is under a 1/4 HP. And I don't want to change the #14 whip. I really don't see the point.
Can I keep it on the 20A circuit?

 

[iwire]

Re: what code reference?

Originally posted by pa electrician:
Can I keep it on the 20A circuit?

No, 240.4(D)

 

[pa electrician]

Re: what code reference?

O.K.
Thanks man. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but heres goes.
Isn't there a reference to "wiring a device that is NOT current limiting or current supplying" (in other words a switch or a recept) that the current supplying conductor be rated to the requirements listed on the UL listed label?
In other words the fan's UL label is rated for 2 amps. That means that the fan will burn up before the conductor feeding it will.
Also, how about this...
The leads for the motor in the fan are #16 or maybe even #18, so even if the motor were to fail and burnout the leads would not burn out before the motor and obviously not before the #14 AWG.
In addition those same #16 motor leads are part of the same 20 amp circuit. So how can you hook ANY fan up to a 20 amp circuit?

 

[benaround]

Re: what code reference?

With #12 wire!

frank

 

[iwire]

Re: what code reference?

Originally posted by pa electrician:
So how can you hook ANY fan up to a 20 amp circuit?

Branch circuit wiring has different rules then appliances.

240.5 Protection of Flexible Cords, Flexible Cables, and Fixture Wires.

(B) Branch Circuit Overcurrent Device. Flexible cord shall be protected where supplied by a branch circuit in accordance with one of the methods described in 240.5(B)(1), (2), or (3).

(1) Supply Cord of Listed Appliance or Portable Lamps. Where flexible cord or tinsel cord is approved for and used with a specific listed appliance or portable lamp, it shall be permitted to be supplied by a branch circuit of Article 210 in accordance with the following:

(1)20-ampere circuits ? tinsel cord or 18 AWG cord and larger

(2)30-ampere circuits ? 16 AWG cord and larger

(3)40-ampere circuits ? cord of 20-ampere capacity and over

(4)50-ampere circuits ? cord of 20-ampere capacity and over

 

[pa electrician]

Re: what code reference?

Originally posted by iwire:

(1)20-ampere circuits ? tinsel cord or 18 AWG cord and larger

(2)30-ampere circuits ? 16 AWG cord and larger

(3)40-ampere circuits ? cord of 20-ampere capacity and over

(4)50-ampere circuits ? cord of 20-ampere capacity and over [/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]

Thanks again guys!
So the code book is so out of hand now that I can put a 50 Amp breaker on a circuit that feeds a wire rated for 20 amps. Makes a lot of sense huh?
But if I use a wire that is rated for 15 Amps and put a half of an amp on it, that's a no, no.
Anyhow, thanks for helping me out though.
I'm just gonna change the damn breaker to a 15Amp breaker. That way I still don't have to change the #14 wire.

 

[roger s deas]

Re: what code reference?

So the code book is so out of hand now that I can put a 50 Amp breaker on a circuit that feeds a wire rated for 20 amps. Makes a lot of sense huh?

The code book is not out of hand, people not understanding how to use it, or simply not using it are. There are different rules for different applications, you would have to immagine all the stretches of every rule before you can understand the reasons behind every rule.

I'm just gonna change the damn breaker to a 15Amp breaker. That way I still don't have to change the #14 wire.

That would be the easiest solution.

Roger

[ July 29, 2005, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: roger s deas ]

 

[augie47]

Re: what code reference?



as i clip my inspector ID tag on I smile, ahhh! job security!

 

[allenwayne]

Re: what code reference?

If you would have checked the ampacity of the circuit first this discussion wouldn`t be on going.
a/c`s and such have a whole different set of rules.The data plate dictates what shall be installed.You can wire for min.(optional as long as you meet the ampacity )But you have to fuse for the max breaker since that is what the manufacturer lists the unit at

 

[bthielen]

Re: what code reference?

I look at it this way. The OCPD is not there to protect the fixture or the appliance. It is there to protect the branch circuit from overheating and causing a fire in the walls. If the fixture draws enough current to break down its own 16ga or 18ga wires, replacing the fixture replaces all of the wires. The branch circuit was protected and hopefully the heat and possibly fire was contained within the outlet and/or fixture and did not spread into the walls.

Bob

 

[roger s deas]

Re: what code reference?

PA, this is a good reason to invest in a code book, it will pay for itself if it prevents one or two of these mistakes.

Roger

[ July 29, 2005, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: roger s deas ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: what code reference?

Originally posted by pa electrician: So the code book is so out of hand now that I can put a 50 Amp breaker on a circuit that feeds a wire rated for 20 amps. Makes a lot of sense huh?

Keep in mind that the purpose of the breaker is to protect the cable. A 50 amp breaker cannot protect a cable that is rated for 20 amps. So the code book will not allow that.

But if I use a wire that is rated for 15 Amps and put a half of an amp on it, that's a no, no.

The "no, no" part does not have anything to do with the load being half an amp. It has to do with protecting a cable that is only good for 15 amps with a breaker that is only good for 15 amps. For reasons that I do not know, a #14 is only good for 15 amps, per 240.4(D), as Bob (iwire) has already pointed out.

 

[celtic]

Re: what code reference?

Originally posted by pa electrician:

I'm just gonna change the damn breaker to a 15Amp breaker. That way I still don't have to change the #14 wire.

That depends...why was the lighting circuit speced as a 20A/#12 circuit?

 

[infinity]

Re: what code reference?

That depends...why was the lighting circuit speced as a 20A/#12 circuit?

240.5(B)(2) allows fixture wires to be protected above their normal ampacity as listed in 310.16.
A tap to a fixture could be #18 AWG if it conforms with 410.67(C). This could be tapped from a 20 amp branch circuit. This is common with 277 volt lighting fixtures in a commercial space.

 

[Jhr]

Re: what code reference?

Pa Electrician why not keep all the wiring the same, if you are using 12/2 stay with 12/2 if 14/2 stay with 14/2, there is no cost differance in 15amp and 20amp residential plug in breakers, don't make more work for yourself than what you bid and are getting paid for, keep it simple friend .

 

[pa electrician]

Re: what code reference?

Well this was another day, where like many other days. I am sent out to do a job with no material, no prints (or good info, or drawings), and no time.
I head out to the supply house and get the 12-2 MC and such (that I'm told that I need). Then I get to the job, and the whole place is romex. So I look on the truck, no frickin romex. Do I waste more time and run back to the supply store? Do I find something else that I can do that doesn't require 12-2 ASAP?
Or do I spend 2 to 3 times the cost of wiring the place and just use the MC? Because no one takes the time to get material ready for jobs,or beleives in keeping wire in stock.
So, I used what I had on the truck. 14-2.
And only to wire up the fan.
Well, the is NO inspection going on at this place, and most everbody agrees that it is not ever gonna burn the wire up no matter what happens. But another one of my co-workers saw the 14-2 romex and made a big deal out of it. He doesn't want to change it. He just want's to make a big deal out of it. And he brings it up every day. So I figured I'd go to great lengths NOT to replace it, no matter what. Then he can steam over how when there is a problem I just find way's around it.
I don't mind if someone has a problem with something I did. Even when I didn't have the correct material to do the job in the 1st place. But if you are sooo worried about it and you can't shut up about it. Then waste your energy changing the damn wire yourself. Cause now I really "don't want to change it". And I will find any code reference that I can to back me up.
Even if changing the 20A breaker to a 15A shuts him up.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: what code reference?

So you screw up and it is the guy who calls you on it that is the problem. :roll:

 

[marinesgt0411]

Re: what code reference?

It is common knowledge that no matter what you carry on your service truck you will not have what you need when you need it.

so what does MR KNOW IT ALL that is raising such a fuss say you should have done.spend another two hours going back to the supply store? and chargeing the custermer for the time?

Or maybe you could hook a 50 foot trailer behind your truck and stock it with every type wire you may incounter.

 

[augie47]

Re: what code reference?

I'm sure many of the inspectors on here will agree with me that one of the most common code reference used by folks who get turned down is one that I';ve yet to locate in the book.....I'm sure it must be Art 100-something or other; Exception (a):"it's o.k. to do it that way if you don't have the proper materials on the truck"

seemingly it's supposed to apply to such tasks as using the wrong color or gage wire, off-brand of over-current device, etc.

I have no idea when the code making panels will wise up and make this exception more noticable in the book

 

[redfish]

Re: what code reference?

When guys give me a hard time on the job site I beat em up. Just kidding, just ignore the guy and change the wire, you both win because you learned a lesson and he didn't get beat up.