What do you do? Ground or not?

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jason

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Which do you consider "safer"?

I gave a customer a price to take down and hang a ceiling fan. I got there and only 2 wire to the fixture (hot and neutral). Without installing a gfci on the circuit, what do you do? Ground the fixture with the grounded conductor or leave the fixture ungrounded? This isn't the first time I've run into this of course just the first time I've asked about it.
 
jason, never, ever, never use the 'grounded' conductor for ' grounding ' a

branch circuit.

Install the fan to the existing wiring or run new wiring that includes an EGC.
 
jason said:
This isn't the first time I've run into this of course just the first time I've asked about it.
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I am glad you asked about it but I also hope you didn't connect to the grounded conductor. There is a difference between the grounded and the grounding conductor. One carries current the other only carries current during a fault-- at least that is how it should be. :wink:
 
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Dennis Alwon said:
I am glad you asked about but I also hope you didn't connect to the grounded conductor. There is a difference between the grounded and the grounding conductor. One carries current the other only carries current during a fault-- at least that is how it should be. :wink:
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I never have. Thanks for the replies.
 
You only have a very few choices when faced with a lighting outlet location with no ground:
  • Get a ground to that location from somewhere
  • Rewire that circuit to include a grounding conductor
  • Install a non-metallic paddle fan
  • Install a non-metallic luminaire.
  • Clip a few blue knockout bushings in the box and call it good.

I'm not even sure the code even permits you to GFCI protect a metallic replacement fixture or paddle fan in leiu of a real ground. I never really checked into it.
 
Ive seen this many time ins old houses with 'knob and tube'. Even though they do allow the connection of the grounded (neutral) conductor to be used as a egc in dryers/ranges in EXISTING installations only, It is NOT allowed for another appliance or fixture, or even lighting.

Like others said, either pull a new circuit with a ground, or connect to the existing circuit (even though this would be a 'code violation' with the metal not being grounded). I was always told on those type of installs (ceiling fans/lights) it was less likely for a person to be shocked by them if there was a fault because when turning them on the person in most cases are NOT grounded so they dont complete the circuit and get shocked. unlike the dryer with the washing machine near by with their hands wet moving clothes and they get shocked there.

I would see if i could install the gfci somewhere in the circuit, its long shot but is there a 'neutral' at the switch??
 
mdshunk said:
You only have a very few choices when faced with a lighting outlet location with no ground:
  • Get a ground to that location from somewhere
  • Rewire that circuit to include a grounding conductor
  • Install a non-metallic paddle fan
  • Install a non-metallic luminaire.
  • Clip a few blue knockout bushings in the box and call it good.

I'm not even sure the code even permits you to GFCI protect a metallic replacement fixture or paddle fan in leiu of a real ground. I never really checked into it.
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the 2008 NEC 410.42(B) exception #2 will allow a 'luminaire' to be replaced with a 'metal' luminaire if it is GFCI protected. ;) funny how they dont mention paddle fans, but in my opinion it should be ok even though not stated in the Code.
 
iwire said:
Either way there would be no grounding means present.

The old BX is not suitable as a grounding means.
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That would depend on two things. How old the cable is and what is your definition of "BX". AC cable required a bonding strip within the cable in the 1950's. Around here even new type AC cable is still called BX.
 
infinity said:
How old the cable is and what is your definition of "BX".
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I hear you Rob.

To be specific, the old armored cable without the bonding strip is not "Type AC" per todays NEC and not suitable for grounding.

The 'old BX' does not meet the construction specifications of 320.100.
 
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