What do you do when....

[JacksonburgFarmer]

What do you do when a customer only wants to "partially fix" unsafe electrical installations? I have a customer whom wants to replace overhead power lines (#10 in free air) but not the entrance cable into the various buildings....He is afraid the "bare" overhead wires are going to cause a fire, but belives the extremely weathered entrance cable will be fine, and doesent want to replace.... My thoughts are that as a EC, I will quote a price for all work that needs to be done, and leave it at that....take it or leave it...

What do you guys do in a situation like this???

 

[dwellselectric]

Do the work he wants you to do. But after you pull your permit and have the AHJ come take a look at what needs to be done. Point out what you have found. Chances are he will tell the HO that it needs to be done.

 

[480sparky]

The camera goes click, and I go "Sign here, please".....

 

[charlie]

The camera goes click, and I go "Sign here, please".....

Great answer Ken.

 

[fireryan]

Do the work he wants you to do. But after you pull your permit and have the AHJ come take a look at what needs to be done. Point out what you have found. Chances are he will tell the HO that it needs to be done.

I agree and hopefully a inspection is required

 

[bradleyelectric]

Do the work requested and have the customer sign Ken's form.

 

[ultramegabob]

If the cable was bad enough that I had real concerns about it, I would tell the customer that the only way I would do the job would be to replace it also. I would not tie into wire I thought was unsafe. So I guess I agree with you, if you are going to give them a price, price it for everything you think needs done to be a safe install.

 

[iwire]

I will do as much or as little as they want, any improvement is better then no improvement. It should go without saying I would notify the customer and if I was very concerned the inspector as well. As always CYA. :smile:

 

[ultramegabob]

I will do as much or as little as they want, any improvement is better then no improvement.

I agree with you to a point, but if you feel that a cable that you are tying into is unsafe, dont you think that is setting yourself up for a liability issue?

 

[iwire]

I agree with you to a point, but if you feel that a cable that you are tying into is unsafe, dont you think that is setting yourself up for a liability issue?

Tough call, I guess I agree with you to a point as well. :smile:

So many variables to consider, in some buildings you could chase the bad wiring non-stop from one end to the other.

 

[ptonsparky]

Camera is good idea. Make note of owners request for overhead only & refusal of suggestion to replace entrance cable. I have replaced a lot of perfectly good bare cu overhead when the building services were what really needed the update.

 

[CopperTone]

i had a job the other day where the guy wanted us to install light fixtures and there were no boxes in the ceiling - BX and romex wiring together just spliced and pushed in the ceiling and the old lights were just screwed to the ceiling.

I told him he could throw those new fixtures up as is but we as licensed electricians would have to take apart the splices, install metal boxes, properly ground everything, and properly install the new light fixtures.
He hemmed and hawwed then agreed we should do it.
only took us 4 hours & $50 in material - but it was a nice little $600 job.

that house is much safer after we were there - were there other "issues" there? yes - but did he want to pay to fix those? nope. were they dangerous? ugly yes maybe not dangerous.

I guess you have to decide if what you touch makes it safer and at what point do you stop "fixing" because it is safe or isn't dangerous.

Sometimes you have to flat out tell people "that is dangerous, a fire waiting to happen, I wouldn't even sleep in this building, sorry I can't legally touch anything here unless we replace xyz which we would be happy to for X amount"

 

[charlietuna]

If it's something life threatening i will explain the seriousness to the customer and not get involved. Other code violations type issues i usually price out what they want --- then figure what "extra" it will cost to bring it up to code --- i admit it i cheat some money "off" the "extra" figure from the "what they want figure" to make it look inviting! Goes like this, " the way you want it done it'll cost about $300., but to bring it up to code it'll be about $375.". I'm sure many of us have had people complain about outdoor gfic outlets not working. And they ask "can you just take those things out, i don't want them"..... Of course this would be considered life threatening !! It helps to educate your customer just why it's against the code, and it's not just an "upgrade", but could risk their family's lives or leave them without insurance.

 

[Rewire]

Can you afford to spend $5,000-$10,000 defending yourself in a lawsuit? Get the wrong judge and you could even lose.

 

[nakulak]

as others have said in so many words,

A. CYA (have them sign a release similar to what EMS medics do when people refuse treatment that might save their lives)

B. try to explain it to them in terms they can understand ("well, if your wife or kid plugs something into that they might kill themselves")

 

[tomspark1]

I wired a dentist's office recently with 4 chairs that each have one dedicated 20 amp GFI circuit (per the plans). I got a call the other day that 2 chairs' outlets were having to be reset every morning. I checked it out and no wiring problems until a piece of equipment with a small transformer was plugged in. She wanted me to change them to regular outlets, so I explained that they were doing their job and that the fault had to be in the equipment. She was upset and couldn't believe I would leave them like that. She also balked at the expense of another circuit. I guess I may have lost a customer but maybe I saved a life... and my license. On the other hand, after her equipment man checks it she may be calling for those new circuits. :grin:

 

[c2500]

The camera goes click, and I go "Sign here, please".....

I would never do this. It would be better to walk away. Because when the house burns down, you will be drawn into a lawsuit. Sure I signed the form, but the guy did not really explain what could happen. If he had, I would have fixed it. Where is my settlement please?

Have you had counsel review your form?

c2500

 

[Rewire]

The first question an attourney will ask "If you knew it was unsafe why didn't you refuse to do it?"

Your answer could cost you $$$$

 

[ohm]

The camera goes click, and I go "Sign here, please".....

Good advice as always 480sparky, even if they refuse to sign it a notation can be made on the form AND on their check before you cash it.
Maurice

 

[ohm]

I wired a dentist's office recently with 4 chairs that each have one dedicated 20 amp GFI circuit (per the plans). I got a call the other day that 2 chairs' outlets were having to be reset every morning. I checked it out and no wiring problems until a piece of equipment with a small transformer was plugged in. She wanted me to change them to regular outlets, so I explained that they were doing their job and that the fault had to be in the equipment. She was upset and couldn't believe I would leave them like that. She also balked at the expense of another circuit. I guess I may have lost a customer but maybe I saved a life... and my license. On the other hand, after her equipment man checks it she may be calling for those new circuits. :grin:

Tom the problem is even worst than meets the eye. Standard GFCI's open the circuit at between 4-6 ma. This is based on skin resistance and a lot of study. If a faulty device plugged into a GFCI is inserted into a mouth that 4-6 ma may not be sufficient protection.

Maurice