What do you do?

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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I'm going to keep this hypothetical with no names attached, since I know that some AHJ reps read this forum.

What do you do when this happens? Say you are dealing with an AHJ who has a requirement for a way to build a certain type of PV system which is not called for by the NEC, and which causes those systems to be built in such a way that increases the cost of the system significantly, seriously inconveniences the customer, and introduces unnecessary bureaucratic blsht which adds weeks to the time between the sale and the system initialization. Say you have had extensive discussions with the AHJ regarding the matter and they justify their position with hand waving and generalities. Say you send them documentation from UL which confirms that an easier, less expensive, and more customer friendly way of building the system is both safe and fully NEC compliant, to which they reply with silence.

Say you are a design engineer caught between your protesting sales and installation departments (including your boss) on the one hand and the AHJ on the other. What do you do?

I'll hang up and listen.
 
ggunn said:
I'm going to keep this hypothetical with no names attached, since I know that some AHJ reps read this forum.

What do you do when this happens? Say you are dealing with an AHJ who has a requirement for a way to build a certain type of PV system which is not called for by the NEC, and which causes those systems to be built in such a way that increases the cost of the system significantly, seriously inconveniences the customer, and introduces unnecessary bureaucratic blsht which adds weeks to the time between the sale and the system initialization. Say you have had extensive discussions with the AHJ regarding the matter and they justify their position with hand waving and generalities. Say you send them documentation from UL which confirms that an easier, less expensive, and more customer friendly way of building the system is both safe and fully NEC compliant, to which they reply with silence.

Say you are a design engineer caught between your protesting sales and installation departments (including your boss) on the one hand and the AHJ on the other. What do you do?

I'll hang up and listen.
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Ask them to "cite a specific code reference in writing". Stick to exactly that script.

Is this regarding any particular design aspect or code rule?
 
Carultch said:
Ask them to "cite a specific code reference in writing". Stick to exactly that script.

Is this regarding any particular design aspect or code rule?
Click to expand...

I have done so, repeatedly, and their response has been "It is our interpretation of the NEC..." without quoting a specific article.

Yes, it is a particular design aspect, but I don't want the discussion to get sidelined into a debate over that specific point. Suffice to say that we have a UL document supporting our position that we have sent to the AHJ, and we have been met with radio silence.
 
electrofelon said:
To quote Zevon: Lawyers, guns, and money? Is this a codified local amendment or an, "I want it this way" ?
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The latter, supported only by a general "It is our interpretation of the NEC..." without quoting a specific article.
 
ggunn said:
Say you are a design engineer caught between your protesting sales and installation departments (including your boss) on the one hand and the AHJ on the other. What do you do?

I'll hang up and listen.
Click to expand...
.
well, the AHJ is the authority having jurisdiction, and unless you
are going to perform a frontal charge on the city council of that
jurisdiction, and succeed.... anything you do will make it worse.

if the person in your company who stands to lose the money
if you can't get jobs passed says charge, then i'd charge.

let's say it turns out for the best, and you get the specific folks
that are causing the problem to back off on the point you are trying
to make, good luck on the field inspections. urg.

what might be the suggestions of the other inspectors on the forum?
 
Fulthrotl said:
.
well, the AHJ is the authority having jurisdiction, and unless you
are going to perform a frontal charge on the city council of that
jurisdiction, and succeed.... anything you do will make it worse.
Click to expand...

That is not necessarily true, in my experience. I have challenged AHJ's on points of code before and prevailed without poisoning the waters. This isn't an city council ordained amendment to the NEC, it's an erroneous interpretation by an inspector.
 
Sounds like your operations manager needs to have a face-to-face talk with the supervisor, or his supervisor. Calmly explain what is happening, what your proposed remedy is (with the backing documentation) and see if they can reach an agreement.
 
For what it's worth...

I had a dumb dispute that went on for months. I basically gave up. The client kept asking what to do so I changed a detail of the installation and called for a new inspection. I brought a couple pages of the code with the section highlighted that said I could do it that way. The field inspector (a guy who was always a jerk) said 'I'm not gonna even look at that, you gotta talk to [the guy in the office you've been talking to without resolution].' I said 'Okay please just take this paper and show it to him' and got a grudging 'ok'. A week or so later the field inspector called me about another inspection and then said 'oh by the way, that one from last week, we passed it'. I couldn't have been more surprised.

Ultimately, if you've done your best, then ask the people who are yelling at you to try it themselves. They've gotta back you up if you're right, not blame it on you. And then if they can't talk sense, it ultimately comes down to how much the legal costs to sue them are compared to the cost of doing what the inspector is asking for.
 
In NJ we would move up line to the DCA which has jurisdiction over code officials state wide. They take a VERY dim view of local yokels trying to push their shirt-pocket rules. I've gone to them about a particular fire official and they were actually very encouraging about filing a formal complaint. Seems we weren't the only ones with an issue. Alas, I left that job before a final resolution so I don't know how it turned out. However, I note that this individual is no longer the fire sub code official in that municipality.
 
jaggedben said:
Ultimately, if you've done your best, then ask the people who are yelling at you to try it themselves. They've gotta back you up if you're right, not blame it on you. And then if they can't talk sense, it ultimately comes down to how much the legal costs to sue them are compared to the cost of doing what the inspector is asking for.
Click to expand...

Also for what it's worth, no one is yelling at me; I enjoy a very copacetic work environment, the best I have had in many years. Our electricians and installers are complaining and my boss has asked for my help in resolving the issue. If I try my best and fail to get the policy changed there will be no repercussions on me.
 
If you are having this problem, other companies probably are as well.

One option is to kick the issue back to your operations team and encourage them to rally a group of industry stakeholders to address the issue from more of a political perspective. Don't make this your problem or your cross to bear, but rather frame it as an unnecessary market barrier for all solar companies.

Another option is to try to go around the inspector to his boss. The problem with Option 2 is that it might not eliminate the problem in the long term and might make things worse for you in the short-term.

The political approach, if warranted, might fix the problem for the long term.
 
ggunn said:
That is not necessarily true, in my experience. I have challenged AHJ's on points of code before and prevailed without poisoning the waters. This isn't an city council ordained amendment to the NEC, it's an erroneous interpretation by an inspector.
Click to expand...

you have been more fortunate than i have, thank god.

i've seen a few situations where the foreman,
or general foreman, went over the field inspectors
head, and have yet to see it turn out well, so i'm
cautious in these matters.... regardless of how it
turns out on the specific point in question, the guy
is still inspecting your jobs..... that sometimes doesn't
go well.

i had about $35k in work in the inland empire to do
in a large tilt up, and the building owners rep took it
upon himself to go into the mayor's office, and try to
get the combo inspector (the city's sole inspector) fired,
'cause things were not going fast enough for him.

i had just bought $15k worth of material delivered to the
site, and thank god, got a draw on that, before the mayoral
fiasco, so i was actually a bit ahead.

the job was postponed indefinitely, while it went back to plan check.
i pulled equipment off the job, stacked the material, and they said
they would call me when they got approved plans.

that was six years ago. never did hear back from them.
 
If it is one inspector's interpretation then I would have an issue with that. If it is the inspection department's interpretation (with several inspectors' input) then I may consider it.

If it is worth your time and it will save good amount of money for the customer and time on the project, then take it up to his supervisor, then one step higher then you have the CBO then finally it will eventually take you to the mayor.

It sounds like your proposed plan is legitimate and not something that you are trying to cut corners, otherwise you would not be blessed by the UL.

Sometimes the inspectors' damaged ego gets in their way.
 
Fulthrotl said:
you have been more fortunate than i have, thank god.
Click to expand...
One reason that is the case is that I choose my battles carefully and I don't go to the mat over trivialities. I also try to maintain a professionally detached and pragmatic attitude at all times no matter how I may be seething internally, and I accept defeat gracefully when it is dealt to me. I don't gloat when I win, and I always strive to leave my opposition a graceful way out.

Maybe that's why I seem to always get these assignments. No good deed goes unpunished. :D
 
ggunn said:
One reason that is the case is that I choose my battles carefully and I don't go to the mat over trivialities. I also try to maintain a professionally detached and pragmatic attitude at all times no matter how I may be seething internally, and I accept defeat gracefully when it is dealt to me. I don't gloat when I win, and I always strive to leave my opposition a graceful way out.
Click to expand...

And your asking for advice from us? ;)
 
Good luck I tried something like this with a supply side tap on the square d solar ready service panels and the supervisors boss agreed with me and I still had to change it to a breaker instead of the ul listed tap option for those panels so just let them know you will no longer be doing business in there jurisdiction get the job approved and move on they are kings of there castle

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 
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