What do you think? Pool house-receptacle requirements

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Steviechia2

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Location
Massachusetts
I have a building next to a pool which we will call a pool house. This has a bathroom, and a bar area with a roof and 3 sides that have a retractable plastic wall. (Q1) For the receptacle requirements I could use 210.52 G and only install 1 outlet for the entire building. I'm not saying I would, but I believe it is allowed. (Q2) Do you think the interior part of the walls are considered damp location which would require UF cable?
 

charlie b

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Location
Seattle, WA
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Electrical Engineer
Yes, yes, and I don't know, in that order.

That second "yes" is limited to the "damp location" portion of the question. I am not familiar with wiring methods, so I can't answer the UF portion of the question.
 

charlie b

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Dennis, I based "my second yes" on the presence of three retractable walls. Does that not expose the interior to sudden bursts of rain? Not enough to call it a wet location, certainly, but why not a damp location?
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Question two is a great question.

I leaning toward yes because of the three open walls, that seems to me like a damp location.

At the same time I can see Dennis's point about crawl spaces. I also do not think NM would be damaged in that location.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Every garage and shed would have the same problem. This has always been a question but I have never seen UF in those situations.

Retractable walls-- what does that mean. I assume they retract for access but they are not left open. I am sure it can go either way depending on AHJ
 

Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Dennis, I based "my second yes" on the presence of three retractable walls. Does that not expose the interior to sudden bursts of rain? Not enough to call it a wet location, certainly, but why not a damp location?

I would say it is a damp location but it is one of those things that usually does not get enforced. Read post above this.
 

Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Retractable walls-- what does that mean. I assume they retract for access but they are not left open. I am sure it can go either way depending on AHJ

Yes, I am sure this will be left open where exposed to driving rain. I agree with Bob I don't think this will be a problem with nm. Inspector is away on vacation so I will play it safe and use UF in this area. Thanks Steve
 
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Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Question #3

Question #3

I believe I can put a sub panel in the bathroom in this pool house since it is not a dwelling 240.24 E says dwelling, dorms and guest rms. What are your thoughts?
 

shepelec

Senior Member
Location
Palmer, MA
240.24 (E) in the MA book had some language changes that might not allow that panel in the bathroom.

My update sheet states " Over current devices are not allowed to be located in bathrooms, guest suites of hotels or motels, dormitories or dwelling units...."

Leave it to MA to muddy things up.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
240.24 (E) in the MA book had some language changes that might not allow that panel in the bathroom.

My update sheet states " Over current devices are not allowed to be located in bathrooms, guest suites of hotels or motels, dormitories or dwelling units...."

Leave it to MA to muddy things up.

This is from the NEC and has been inplace for quite a few code cycles.

210.24(E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units and
guest rooms or guest suites of hotels and motels, overcurrent
devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection,
shall not be located in bathrooms.

There is no MA amendment changing this or deleting it. :)
 

shepelec

Senior Member
Location
Palmer, MA
This is from the NEC and has been inplace for quite a few code cycles.



There is no MA amendment changing this or deleting it. :)

The info I supplied was from the update class last weekend. Unfortunatley you know how quick those classes cover the information. A simple change in wording makes a lot of difference.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Oh, what a tangled web we weave ....

Damp location .... the entire issue arises because of the recent ban on NM-B in damp locations. Amazingly enough, this has led to some asserting that this means you can't have NM-B in crawl spaces. (I report- you decide :) ). Oddly enough, this is one place where 'cheap NM and plastic boxes' just might perform better than EMT and steel.

Pool house ... As described I don't see it as any sort of dwelling. Therefore there are no receptacles required - inside, outside, along the walls, or in the bathroom. Plus, you get to put the panel in the bath if you wish.

With the proximity to the pool and the outdoors, I think a case can be made for using the 'weather resistant' devices. Are 'tamper resistant' also required? I think so. GFCI? Almost certainly, looking at the other places that specify GFCI protection.

Where to place the GFCI unit? With corrosion a concern (pool humidity and chlorine), this is one time I'd consider breakers- maybe even in the homes' panel. Get them as far from the fumes as you can ....
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Oh, what a tangled web we weave ....

Damp location .... the entire issue arises because of the recent ban on NM-B in damp locations.

Recent?

The oldest NEC I have here is the 1990 and NM was only allowed in 'normally dry locations' which seems to rule out damp locations.
 

Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
My update sheet states " Over current devices are not allowed to be located in bathrooms, guest suites of hotels or motels, dormitories or dwelling units...."

Leave it to MA to muddy things up.

I have the update sheets and did not even see anything at all for art 240 for MA. amendments. I also read 2011 and the only change is they added dormitories. This is not a dwelling nor service equipment so I believe this is allowable.
 
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renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I was referring to the difference between 334.10A1, which references 'normally dry,' 334.12B4, which uses the terminology 'wet or damp,' and 334.15C, which seems to assume that NM will be installed in crawl spaces.

We're let holding the bag, trying to discern the difference between "normally dry" and 'damp.' I pretty much figure that I can make the distinction ... but the folks at the HI forums seem to have a problem.

Consider the usual household bathroom. Damp- or 'normally dry?' Does it matter if the stuff is inside the walls?

For the pool house under discussion, the 'what if' crowd can really have a ball. Heck, 'what if' I leave my garage door open and it rains? Am I now required to wire the garage for 'damp' locations? Does moist dirt, or even standingg water, in a crawl space make it a 'damp' location? My sunroom is little more than a patio surrounded by windows- does that make the inside of it a 'damp' location?

This is exactly the issue this thread raises. Where do we stop once we start playing 'what if?'

I consider the 'pool' part of the description irrelevant. With the distances required between the receptacles and the pool, I do not consider the water from splashing or maintenance operations to be an issue. I would not, however, qualify the removable front of the pool house as being any sort of 'wall' that might allow a receptacle closer to the pool.

Of course, if someone were to assert that Article 334 needs some serious reconsideration, I would have to agree.
 
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