Electric-Light
Senior Member
Why would they offer 1/2 hp 1.5 SF instead of just selling it as 3/4 hp at 1.0SF?
What is the point of service factor?
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winnie
Senior Member
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- Springfield, MA, USA
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- Electric motor research
While horsepower is a unit like watts, the horsepower rating of a motor includes about things like temperature rise, break-away torque, stall torque, etc.
So a 1/2 hp motor with a 1.5 sf implies 1/2 hp overall characteristics but the ability to deliver 3/4 without overheating.
-Jon
So a 1/2 hp motor with a 1.5 sf implies 1/2 hp overall characteristics but the ability to deliver 3/4 without overheating.
-Jon
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
More money? Possibly the frame size?
I think that's the question. If it can continuously deliver 3/4 HP, why not just call it what it is?
Electric-Light
Senior Member
For the record.. IEC does not utilize SF like IEEE
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
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- Electric motor research
Again the 'horsepower' rating implies a bunch of other characteristics such as peak torque (breakdown torque), starting torque, etc.
If the motor has the starting characteristics of a 1/2 Hp motor, but is thermally capable of 3/4 Hp output, what would you call it?
IMHO it probably makes more sense to break out all of these factors, and separately state the starting torque, breakdown torque, thermally limited output, etc. But if you want to dumb it dowm to one number....
-Jon
The horsepower rating and service factor tells you none of these things.
This I know.
big john
Senior Member
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- Portland, ME
The best explanation I've heard for service factor is that it's a way to run the equipment outside of design rating without voiding the warranty.
Because my understanding is that any extended duty in the service factor is very likely to result in heating that reduces operational life, so it's not like you're getting a better motor just because it's rated at 1.15SF
Because my understanding is that any extended duty in the service factor is very likely to result in heating that reduces operational life, so it's not like you're getting a better motor just because it's rated at 1.15SF
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- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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- Electrical Engineer
Bingo. I'm not going to bother to look it up, but the official NEMA definition of motor "service factor" states something to the effect that if you use the SF, you can expect that the performance specs will NOT be as stated on the nameplate, including things like starting torque, starting current, efficiency, slip, break down torque, bearing life, temperature rise, etc. In other words you can use it at the SF if you want to, but you can't expect it to act and preform as per spec. A decade (or two?) ago, NEMA MG-1 USED TO also say words to the effect of "... and you will experience shorter motor life", but under pressure from OEMs, they removed those words.
A Service Factor of 1.5 is kind of rare for off-the-shelf motors, usually it's 1.15, maybe 1.25 on small motors or very large motors, which makes more sense in an OEM world where dollars count. If I need 3.75HP at the shaft, I can use a 5HP motor and have some fudge factor, or I can use a 3HP motor with a 1.25 SF and save some $$. The OEM will save the $$ and hope it outlasts the warranty period, an end user should consider using the 5HP motor and not have to replace it after having their production line go down and lose money.
Are they even stated on the nameplate?
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- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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- Electrical Engineer
OK, I found my copy of NEMA MG-1 from 1998, here's what it says:
So I guess I was wrong about the torque, it specifically says the torque remains the same, but the other stuff does change. This is I think the last time they had those words about the life being reduced. I don't have a newer copy, but I've been shown excerpts of it (in a similar debate) pointing out that it is no longer including those last two sentences.
So I guess I was wrong about the torque, it specifically says the torque remains the same, but the other stuff does change. This is I think the last time they had those words about the life being reduced. I don't have a newer copy, but I've been shown excerpts of it (in a similar debate) pointing out that it is no longer including those last two sentences.
motor service factor
motor service factor
IT used to read [NEMA] that a service factor could be used continuously, if needed, then they backed it off to occasionally. The overall reason was to try and keep the frame size as small as possible.
THey play a lot of games with service factors, many times they are the same motors, especially rotary phase converters, with a 1.0 SF they up the HP and get more $$$$$. But look closely and the one with the lower HP and SF is less $$$$$. I havent looked in years, but it was a common con thing.
The average motor, runs at maybe 75% of rated HP. Rarely do you clamp a motor running right on the FLA.[there are situations where fans are restricted, and restricted by using a clamp meter, and pumps, but most things out there are close enough... Motors are rated with the FLA other data and even HP at the factory with a dynamometer. So they make 1000 motors, they sample 100, use the average and thats how it goes,
A large above NEMA motor, is usually such an investment, it is speced and built to the PF, EFF, KVA CODE, DESIGN CODE, slip, on and on.
One vanilla motor might run fine if it needed to be overloaded for a short while, another motor might struggle at FLA, it just doesn't happen that often, so they do the averaging thing. Look at the gross weight of identical motors from different manufacturers, It's not uncommon to have a 15 HP vanilla motor from MFG A to be wound with 10 pounds of magnet wire, and MFG B is wound with 21 pounds of magnet wire. Surely not, has to be a relationship between amount of wire and HP ? it really comes down to cheap imported steel for the laminations, lack of back iron, cheapened up conductor material in the rotor, cheaper bearings, rolled steel frame or cast frame, wherever they can cut and it still spins,
Bottom line its a marketing thing, Think about motor HP ratings, 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 5, 7.5 10, 15, 20 so on, there are no 6 HP [at least no vanilla] there are no 2.5 HP motors, when in doubt find a motor guy/gal that knows their stuff and they are your best chance of getting what you need with enough wiggle room, and not more than you need, and NOT pay more upfront but everytime it runs. You will be told a rewound motor is less efficient than a new motor, more BS, sure it could happen, but who measures their motors eff? I promise a decent motor shop, will put more copper in the slots, [if it will fit and normally you can get some more in, you'll get insulation in between the end turn phases, the overall resistance will be as low or lower by both wire size and coil lengths, the windings will be hand bound every slot, the rotor balance is likely to be better, there are many improvements from a hand built motor over many new off the shelf. The warranty is the same in most cases, and the price might even be a motivator. Its difficult to compete with imported crap, especially in the lower HP ranges, but if it is a critical motor, or in some location it takes Houdini to get it out, consider having it rebuilt. Again find a motor gal/guy and let them SHOW you the benefits,
We can also adjust for voltages say your 460 is constantly at 499,501,501 we can get the voltage rating up to the 500 by adding a few ampere turns and adjusting the conductor sizing.
But if I had a critical motor I'd have my old cast frame motor hand wound and refurbished. Plus the service factor thing can be dealt with if its an issue.
motor service factor
IT used to read [NEMA] that a service factor could be used continuously, if needed, then they backed it off to occasionally. The overall reason was to try and keep the frame size as small as possible.
THey play a lot of games with service factors, many times they are the same motors, especially rotary phase converters, with a 1.0 SF they up the HP and get more $$$$$. But look closely and the one with the lower HP and SF is less $$$$$. I havent looked in years, but it was a common con thing.
The average motor, runs at maybe 75% of rated HP. Rarely do you clamp a motor running right on the FLA.[there are situations where fans are restricted, and restricted by using a clamp meter, and pumps, but most things out there are close enough... Motors are rated with the FLA other data and even HP at the factory with a dynamometer. So they make 1000 motors, they sample 100, use the average and thats how it goes,
A large above NEMA motor, is usually such an investment, it is speced and built to the PF, EFF, KVA CODE, DESIGN CODE, slip, on and on.
One vanilla motor might run fine if it needed to be overloaded for a short while, another motor might struggle at FLA, it just doesn't happen that often, so they do the averaging thing. Look at the gross weight of identical motors from different manufacturers, It's not uncommon to have a 15 HP vanilla motor from MFG A to be wound with 10 pounds of magnet wire, and MFG B is wound with 21 pounds of magnet wire. Surely not, has to be a relationship between amount of wire and HP ? it really comes down to cheap imported steel for the laminations, lack of back iron, cheapened up conductor material in the rotor, cheaper bearings, rolled steel frame or cast frame, wherever they can cut and it still spins,
Bottom line its a marketing thing, Think about motor HP ratings, 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 5, 7.5 10, 15, 20 so on, there are no 6 HP [at least no vanilla] there are no 2.5 HP motors, when in doubt find a motor guy/gal that knows their stuff and they are your best chance of getting what you need with enough wiggle room, and not more than you need, and NOT pay more upfront but everytime it runs. You will be told a rewound motor is less efficient than a new motor, more BS, sure it could happen, but who measures their motors eff? I promise a decent motor shop, will put more copper in the slots, [if it will fit and normally you can get some more in, you'll get insulation in between the end turn phases, the overall resistance will be as low or lower by both wire size and coil lengths, the windings will be hand bound every slot, the rotor balance is likely to be better, there are many improvements from a hand built motor over many new off the shelf. The warranty is the same in most cases, and the price might even be a motivator. Its difficult to compete with imported crap, especially in the lower HP ranges, but if it is a critical motor, or in some location it takes Houdini to get it out, consider having it rebuilt. Again find a motor gal/guy and let them SHOW you the benefits,
We can also adjust for voltages say your 460 is constantly at 499,501,501 we can get the voltage rating up to the 500 by adding a few ampere turns and adjusting the conductor sizing.
But if I had a critical motor
petersonra
Senior Member
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- Northern illinois
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- engineer
We used to have a customer in the HVAC industry who discovered that they could put motors with a 1.25 service Factor on some fans and pumps and save almost $50 a system. That is how cheap the HVAC industry tends to be. These systems were usually in the 20 to $30,000 range. And at least a couple of cases to accommodate that service Factor we had to go to the next size overload on some IEC starters.
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