What the heck?

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sii

sii

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Nebraska
I just got back from quoting some electrical work for an acquaintance. This is a fairly new house. Observations:
  • The house has a 200 amp Siemens panel that is full of Cutler-Hammer BR breakers.
  • Not one breaker is GFCI of AFCI.
  • The inspection sticker is dated August of 2008. AHJ adopted 2008 NEC with the exception of AFCI related articles early 2008. AFCI articles were adopted early this summer.
  • There is a sticker on the panel saying that it was installed by one of the two biggest electrical contractors in the city.
I don't get it.

I guess I don't really have a constructive question here other than how is this possible?
 
must not be state becuase they are still on 2005, are the cutler hammer breakers listed for use in the siemens panel? Doubt it!
 
Up here, the date the electrical permit is issued determines the Code in force for the work covered by the permit.

Didn't Nebraska ignore the AFCI requirement for a while there?

As for the GFCI breakers. . . were there any GFI receptacles?
 
1) house was permitted before the change
2) greasy palms
3) inspector was an easy mark

I'm bettin on 1
 
al hildenbrand said:
Didn't Nebraska ignore the AFCI requirement for a while there?
Click to expand...

Yes, Neb did ignore AFCI for awhile, this is City who ignored it for even longer. We're real forward:Dthinkers here. Our idea of traffic control is to UNSYNCHRONIZE all of the traffic lights. It takes longer to drive through downtown in a city of 280K than it used to take me to drive through downtown Denver.

Back on topic, I didn't look see any GFCI receptacles but I also didn't see the kitchen or either of the bathrooms.
 
Welcome to Nebraska.

We did and still are ignoring AFCIs in at least one of the larger cities. Omaha recently got permisssion from the SED to extend the time of enforcement for NEC 05, 210.12 which should have gone into affect Jan 1, 2008. Apparently the Home Builders Association in that area has exerted a lot of pressure to keep AFCIs out of new homes. It has worked well enough that statewide adoption of 2008 NEC has been held up too. Personal experience with the BR combination style AFCI leans me in the direction of supporting their effort. Unfortunately that means fewer testing facilities for AFCIs.

Omaha builders were also responsible for a license for residential wiring. They felt ropers didn't need to know anything but residential applications.
 
OK, now I understand what's going on here. The customer called me back today to accept the quote but had a couple of questions. Apparently her brother-in-law works for Square D (they have a manufacturing facility here) and she wants to know if she can get the AFCI breakers from him, for free of course. I said that was fine although I would not warranty the breakers but whatever. I made sure she understood that they had to be the correct brand. Do the manufacturers make aftermarket breakers for other brands?

She called back about ten minutes later and said that he could not get an 15 amp AFCI but COULD get 20 amp GFCI...wouldn't that do the same thing? No, I said, it will not work. She seemed to accept this, although she was not happy but again, whatever.

She called back and left a message: "I talked to my b-i-l again and we had these same kind of issues when we built the house. He said that all that AFCI/GFCI stuff is just smoke and mirrors and totally unneccessary. We're just going to use regular breakers, OK? That should be fine, right? He's going to drop them off tonight on his way home from work."

I later left her a message saying that the work had to be inspected and her ideas would not pass inspection. I haven't heard back yet.

Damn, I rarely do residential work and then usually only for people I know. Is it ALWAYS like this? I would like to head in the direction of spending more time doing this kind of work but I do not have the patience for this.
 
sii said:
Damn, I rarely do residential work and then usually only for people I know. Is it ALWAYS like this? I would like to head in the direction of spending more time doing this kind of work but I do not have the patience for this.
Click to expand...
:grin:

Heh! With the exception of the Square D B. I. L., this sounds real familiar. Every so often, one comes up against a bargainer that enjoys triangulating communication to play people.

The real issue is being sure of the local Code in effect. In the case of this panel, the recent history of changes in the requirements of the Code, and when they changed, for that jurisdiction, determines what the rules are. Someone "who works for Square D" has no standing. Period.

The problems in the configuration of the panel are the responsibility of the owner of the dwelling. You did not make it this way. She may not like the cost, and may want her B. I. L. to be right, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Electrical Inspector okaying your work that you do for her.

Tell her to have the Electrical Inspector "pre-inspect" the work to OK the work needed. Depending upon the actual history of enforcement, you may find a better understanding, OR, she may settle down and feel better about these new fangled doodads like GFCI and AFCI.

Otherwise, let her find somebody else that will put her at risk.
 
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