What to do?

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Vinniem

Senior Member
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Central Jersey
Looking for advice from you experts.

Went on an estimate on friday night. 6500 square foot house.(my estimate) Homeowner just moved in 3 months ago wants the following:

Move a 50 amp electric stove feed for a kitchen rehab job.
Move a heat lamp in the master bathroom.
Install a 50 amp cook top stove circuit in basement for a basement kitchen.
Install a 20 amp microvave circuit.

Here is the problem. The service is 150 amp, 40 circuit panel that is packed, lots of piggy back breakers.

The is also a small 60 amp sub panel that is full.

Looking around the basement, which as a open ceiling, there are all sorts of code voliations including open splices, made by the previous do it yourself homeowner.

I suggested a new service, which they are not willing to do.

I feel this job is to much of a headache, especially when the inspector finds out about the code voliations. I can see how the got a CO

My gut feeling is to pass on this job.

What do you think?
 
Not for nothing, but "basement kitchen" reeks of "illegal apartment." 50a for a cooktop? Make the calculations, if 150a service is inadequate, tell the owner you're not in the business of installing violations. If it is adequate, do the job and then let the inspector and the homeowner worry about the fallout over the existing violations. (Which should have been addressed by this new homeowner's inspector, and may have been, and resolved to purchase as-is anyway.)
 
If the main panel is already jammed up with piggy back breakers, it is probably already in violation. The subpanel also can probably not support the added circuits. Your hands are tied. If they don't go for the upgrade, you can't do the rest of the work.
 
Vinniem said:
My gut feeling is to pass on this job.
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If your gut feeling is to pass then pass and don't look back or would write a quote for what you think needs to be done ( new service & other work ) and submit it to the homeowner. Then it becomes a take it or leave it deal.

One of the hardest things to learn in this business is to pass on certain jobs. We always need or want more money so it's hard to pass up work but in many cases it's the best move.
 
Vinniem said:
Move a 50 amp electric stove feed for a kitchen rehab job.
Move a heat lamp in the master bathroom.
Install a 50 amp cook top stove circuit in basement for a basement kitchen.
Install a 20 amp microvave circuit.

Here is the problem. The service is 150 amp, .....
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Do a load calc. . I'll guess that the service is probably big enough. . I'm amazed at what turns up OK on a load calc. . It may not be a good idea to power all of that from a 150, but the load calc often says that its allowed.

Vinniem said:
..... 40 circuit panel that is packed, lots of piggy back breakers.

The is also a small 60 amp sub panel that is full.
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That could be a significant problem. . Either the house is huge or the loads on each cuircuit are small. . If you can't combine many of the loads and cut down on the amount of existing circuits, then you'll have to put enough into your bid to cover fixing the problem with a rework/adding of the subpanels.

Vinniem said:
Looking around the basement, which as a open ceiling, there are all sorts of code voliations including open splices, made by the previous do it yourself homeowner.

I suggested a new service, which they are not willing to do.

I feel this job is to much of a headache, especially when the inspector finds out about the code voliations. I can see how the got a CO
Click to expand...

Give them a price to fix the violations but as far as the inspector goes, you have a scope in your work, outlined by your contract. . The homeowner is responsible for everything else, not you. . If the inspector tries to make everything your problem, object. . If there isn't a state or local code that forces your scope to increase, then you can't be held responsible for anything outside your scope. . [If you're in Ohio, local codes have been thrown out by the state, final effective date May 27, 2007, and the only state forced increase in job scope is smoke detectors, RCO313.1.1]

Vinniem said:
My gut feeling is to pass on this job.

What do you think?
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That's your call. . Walking away is right call sometimes. . If the homeowner is looking for a Tennisshoe Ted to slam in the work cheap and low quality without inspections, walking away is definitely the best choice. . See how the homeowner reacts to the news of the DIY violations, maxed-out service, and loaded-up subpanels.

If they're concerned with their safety, they'll be willing to pay enough to have it done right. . If not, then walk away and let them get the job that they pay for from Tennisshoe Ted.

David
 
dnem said:
[If you're in Ohio, local codes have been thrown out by the state, final effective date May 27, 2007, and the only state forced increase in job scope is smoke detectors, RCO313.1.1]





David
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David, can you please provide additional info. on above? Does this mean that local jurisdiction cannot forced updates/existing violations beyond the job scope?
 
Michael15956 said:
dnem said:
[If you're in Ohio, local codes have been thrown out by the state, final effective date May 27, 2007, and the only state forced increase in job scope is smoke detectors, RCO313.1.1]
Click to expand...

David, can you please provide additional info. on above? Does this mean that local jurisdiction cannot forced updates/existing violations beyond the job scope?
Click to expand...

Speaking for Ohio only, Yes you are correct. . Local jurisdiction cannot force updates of existing violations beyond the job scope. . Local jurisdictions are not allowed to enforce any local building codes. . Local jurisdictions can still enforce local zoning requirements but not building code. . Every jurisdiction in the state had one year to apply to the state to enforce the new state code. . The new code prevents any enforcement of any local code/requirement beyond zoning. . Any jurisdiction that did not apply to the state to enforce the new state code by the deadline is not allowed to continue to enforce anything. . Their building department is out of business.

The one year application period ran from May 27, 2006 to May 27, 2007. . As each jurisdiction applied and then was approved to enforce the new code they were required to drop all local requirements. . Thruout the year, cities, villages, and counties were getting their approval dates at different times. . There was no way to know which jurisdictions were out of the local code business and which ones were still enfocing their own requirements. . But that changed on May 27, 2007.

The final deadline was May 27, 2007. . You're under new code or out of business, period !

Under state building code, the only forced updates of existing violations beyond the job scope is residential smoke detectors, RCO313.1.1. . The commercial code, OBC, requires a look at the fire system at change of use or change of occupancy of a commercial or industrial building.

David
 
I wouldn't have any trouble at all quoting this work. Proper contract language should always include the statement that any other work required by the inspectors, etc. is beyond the scope of the contract. I don't see the load that you're adding as being all that significant. I also don't see any red flags for a basement kitchen. They're popular among folks who entertain in the basement and home canners. I would personally include the repair of the open splices and other such obvious things that were directly in the work area in the contract price.
 
Do a quick Article 220 calculation to determine if the existing service is adequate. Depending on the heat/air conditioning load and any other electrical appliances it may or may not be adequate. If the house is in fact 6500 square feet, and they have electrical appliances and/or electric heat/air conditioning you will probably find that the service is inadequate for the existing load much less the load that they wish to add. Once you have the calculation you can discuss the facts. At this point all you are doing is speculation. If they are not willing to pay to have the job done correctly, walk away. They will be the first ones to ask you to do a substandard job and the first ones to drag you into court when something happens. Be selective about the jobs that you select. The 80/20 rule is pretty reliable in business. You will make 80% of your profit from 20% of your customers. The most successful contractor will be the one that focuses on the work that is worth doing.
 
mdshunk said:
I would personally include the repair of the open splices and other such obvious things that were directly in the work area in the contract price.
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I agree. . If it's directly in the work area it would be easier to make the corrections than argue with the inspector over your scope.
 
Vinniem said:
Looking around the basement, which as a open ceiling, there are all sorts of code voliations including open splices, made by the previous do it yourself homeowner.

I suggested a new service, which they are not willing to do.

I feel this job is to much of a headache, especially when the inspector finds out about the code voliations. I can NOT see how they got a CO

My gut feeling is to pass on this job.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Is what I highlighted in RED what you meant?

The "sins" of a previous "electrician" should not haunt, nor hinder you. If you are uncomfortable with the job:
a) Pass on it
b) Include language to CYA



I would perform the load calc. to prove/disprove the upgrade. If proved, and they are still not willing to get the up...walk.
 
run!

run!

unless you are hungry, RUN, FOREST, RUN. Your time could be better spent on a "better" job. You obvioulsy are concerned about doing the "right" thing and the owner isn't. Let them find an electricain with eqaul values to theirs.
 
Thanks for the advice guys.

I followed my gut feelings and walked.

They seemed to me the type of people that weren't concerned with doing things right.
 
Vinniem said:
Manalapan. off Tenant rd, close to Route 9
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i personally stopped working in Manalapan about 8 yrs ago...I wouldn't do a resi job in Manalapan no matter what the offer was...
 
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