What to do?

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joeyww12000

Senior Member
Location
Chatsworth GA
Ive posted about this problem before, but I would like to know what you guys would do. I was going back today at work to make a nuetral to ground bond at a 120/208 panel. The reason was there was no bond at the transformer because my foreman says a 120/208 doesnt need to be bonded, but if it was a 120/240 it would. Anyway I tried to sneek and bond it at the panel before he caught me but he did and told me not to do it. So do I let it ride and not have a bonded XO on the seperately derived system and hope noone gets killed or equipment fried? He even tried to pull out his codebook today and show me, but he wasnt looking at 250.30. Im not sure he knows what a seperately derived system is.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Sounds like you are familiar with 250.30(A)(1). If this helps, here is the NECHB commentary that follows that art.

Where a separately derived system provides a grounded conductor, a system bonding jumper must be installed to connect the equipment grounding conductors to the grounded conductor. Equipment grounding conductors are connected to the grounding electrode system by the grounding electrode conductor. The system bonding jumper is sized according to 250.28(D) and may be located at any point between the source terminals (transformer, generator, etc.) and the first disconnecting means or overcurrent device. See the commentary following 250.28(D) for further information on sizing the system bonding jumper.
If you need to see the NEC art. also let us know.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
A little different twist, what if the poco service trough has multi-disconnects in front of the MDP ?

Ground all the way to MDP ?
(ME)Bound everything to it before MDP or
Poco bonds everything to my ground in trough ?

I've been waiting for their meter bases, guess who hung them ! :rolleyes:
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Electrician
76nemo said:
It has to be bonded at the first diconnect, what is his question????
It can be bonded at the source or the first disconnect as shown in the illustration, and even at both locations if 250.30(A)(1) Exception No.#2 is met.

Joey, maybe you should notify someone above the foreman of what he is instructing you to do. You might even notify the inspector and request he let you remain anonymous.

Roger
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
joeyww12000 said:
The reason was there was no bond at the transformer because my foreman says a 120/208 doesnt need to be bonded, but if it was a 120/240 it would.
Ask him why the 120/240v would require bonding.
 

joeyww12000

Senior Member
Location
Chatsworth GA
I gave my foreman copies of this thread and he still didnt get it. All he can say is you bond at service entrance or first disconnect means. Hes an idiot and I dont understand how hes done this for 30 years. Im requesting not to work on his crew on anymore jobs. Hes right about bonding at the service entrance he just doesnt understand that a transformer is a new system, or seperately derived system. Ive been doing this for a little over 5 years and he has been an electrician for 30, hes not listening to me.
 
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chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
joeyww12000 said:
I gave my foreman copies of this thread and he still didnt get it.
So him this.

Separately Derived System. A premises wiring system whose power is derived from a source of electric energy or equipment other than a service. Such systems have no direct electrical connection, including a solidly connected grounded circuit conductor, to supply conductors originating in another system.
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
You have several choices:
  1. Confront the foreman again with the facts and let him know that you intend to go over his head (this will not produce a good working relationship in the future but is OK if you are considering No. 5)
  2. Go over your foreman's head (assuming there is someone who would understand what you are saying)
  3. Correct the situation on the sly so the foreman doesn't know about the work (not a good situation if he found out later)
  4. Ignore the violation and testify in court later if someone gets hurt if it comes to that
  5. Leave the company and don't look back
It seems to me that door No. 1, 2 and 5 are the only good choices.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
This is the opposite problem most people have. Normally, guys are wanting to stick bond screws and bonding jumpers in all the places where they don't belong. In this case, the foreman doesn't want to put one in where it does belong.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Joey,

You are going to have to practise distinguishing between being right and communicating clearly.

You are absolutely correct that an SDS must be bonded somewhere (unless, of course, it is an intentionally ungrounded system, which should not be the case with a 208/120V system per NEC).

But now you need to communicate this to your boss. Calling him stupid in a public forum, especially if you've pointed him to the thread, does not make the case. If he has been in this job for 30 years, he probably is doing 99% of things perfectly, and probably absolutely certain that a couple of errors are 'how things should be done'. This is probably true for most professionals (not just electricians), and will probably be true for you after 30 years. You can't do your job without being sure in your knowledge, and sometimes you will be sure about the wrong things.

Your job is not to prove to this guy that you are right and he is wrong. Your job is to get him to figure out for himself that he is wrong. No matter how many times you prove things to him, all you will is get him defensive, and make him try harder to probe that he is right and you are wrong.

Try asking him why we bond at all. Ask him what would happen if the service was not bonded. Ask him what happens at these transformers with their ungrounded secondaries if there is a ground fault. Trace out the circuits and current flows together. Be open to learning from him, and be willing to admit that you are wrong if he shows you a low impedance path for ground faults. Get creative in how you approach this, rather than angry.

-Jon
 

joeyww12000

Senior Member
Location
Chatsworth GA
Jon, I have asked him alot of the questions you have requested and he just isnt knowledgable. Somehow he has skated by. Im not saying Im correct all the time because Im still learning everyday and can admit that. My foreman on the other hand is one of these guys who's ego is to much for him to overcome. He cannot and will not be wrong. If something happens and this installation is found wrong, he will throw it off on me and the other lead man even though the job bears his name. He will swear up and down he told us to bond those transformers. I guess Ill see him in court, because I cant afford to quit my job.........Ive stepped over his head once and talked to the owner about this. 4 out of 8 transformers got neutral to ground bonds, but the GEC to building steel is to small so they are not 100% correct. Of course the foreman said he didnt see why we were doing this and he didnt even know the panels that had neutral to ground bonds were even done. He just grabbed some #8 thhn and said "ground these panels to the steel to pacify the owner". The feeders to the panels are #1's and some of the other panels were up to 3/0. I dont think #8 GEC is correct???? He just isnt a smart guy.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
joeyww12000 said:
He just isnt a smart guy.
Really, is he the owners son?

There is a reason he is a Foreman and your boss, sure he may have a problem understanding this requirement but he must have some qualities that have put him in the position he is in.

The electrical trade is full of big egos, all I have to do is look in the mirror and I see one more big headed foreman. How you deal with these egos will have a lot to do with how far you go in the trade. Sure you can be a tough guy and ram right into the big egos but that approach can be frustrating and hurt your own advancement.

Re-read Winnie's post and really try to absorb what he is saying

Your job is not to prove to this guy that you are right and he is wrong. Your job is to get him to figure out for himself that he is wrong. No matter how many times you prove things to him, all you will is get him defensive, and make him try harder to probe that he is right and you are wrong.
No one likes to be shown wrong in front of others, and certainly a foreman will not respond well to be dressed down by a relative newcomer.

Look at me, I am a code geek, I go to other foreman's jobs all the time and I see violations, I would never bring this up to the foreman in front of others, I would wait till I got them alone and put it more like 'I have never seen that done that way' Or 'Was there a code change about ....

Or if it is not a real safety issue I might just mind my own business. In the case of an unbonded SDS I would speak up, i is wrong it is a safety issue. If I could not get it straightened out with the foreman I would feel obligated to go over his head, but boy I would want to do that as carefully as I could.
 

jghrist

Senior Member
joeyww12000 said:
I gave my foreman copies of this thread and he still didnt get it. ... Hes an idiot and I dont understand how hes done this for 30 years. ...
I wouldn't give him copies of this thread anymore.:mad:
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
Send the shop notarized letters stating that the install does not meet code and that you requested it be corrected. Sounds like you already are in a hole there anyways so this will at least remove your responsibility.
 
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