what to tell the owner of the business

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drwill

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Checking on some work done by a non licensed person and found this. last Panel in line has ground and neutral bonded together. 2- 5hp air compressors Each on their own breaker 1 a 240 volt 30 amp, the other a 240 volt 20 amp breakeR. I found the wires for the compressors and 3 other 20 amp single pole circuits in the same conduit.In the other conduit I found 4-20 amp circuits run together with 1 #8 run for the neutral. This job was done by non licensed person who claimed he could do the job for what i had bid in material alone.any thoughts on what to tell customer would be great. the reason i know about this was i was called to fix a tripped breaker that wouldn't reset. found nicked wire Uf that was taped over and reburied.

Thanks drwill
ps i from Texas and we have state licensing, and where this work was done has gone for years without havinng to use licensed electricians.
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

The question I have is, "Why go back in the first place?" I think this would come under the heading of suggesting to this guy that he call his hack to fix his own mistakes and to cross his fingers that his business doesn't burn down. :D
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

Drwill, besides the panel grounding issue, I don't know if there is a violation in your description.

If derating per 315.15(B)(2)(a) was considered in conduit #1, all these cicuits could be in one conduit. In conduit #2, a common nuetral sized to the maximum number of circuits is not specifically prohibited and infact is allowed in 225.7.

The UF should be repaired appropriatly.

Roger
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

Yeah, I'm a little uneasy about stepping out here and admitting it, but I agree with Roger, I just see the grounding issue, which could be quickly fixed, maybe.

Maybe I'm not reading something right?
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

It's what you haven't found that would scare me.

Steve
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

the first conduit has 10 current carrying conductors in it. I belive that allows only 17.5 amps on the motors conductors, and then only 12.5 amps on the 20 amp circuits that serve 20 amp rated receptacles.
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

There was a very famous person (I?ll not give names) who had a reputation for being a harsh boss. His direct-report persons were required to send quarterly reports with a vast amount of data and descriptive information about their respective equipment and systems. He was known, on occasion, to call one of these people, and when they answered, he would (with no introduction or preamble) yell into the phone ?read your (expletive deleted) letter :D

Here is a related suggestion: Tell the owner that you have observed one or more code violations, at least one of which is serious enough to present a real and present threat to life. But don?t tell the owner what the violation(s) are. If your sense of ethics requires you (it would probably require me) to do so, then cite at least one code article and paragraph number that had been violated. I don?t think you are professionally obliged to do more. Tell the owner that he should call back the original installer, and have that person inspect and repair the problem(s) at that person?s own expense. The owner won?t believe you, of course. But you are welcome to print out a copy of this thread, show it to the owner, and declare that a group of 22,000+ professional electricians, engineers, inspectors, and contractors read this Forum daily, and that we agree with your statements.

[ April 26, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

I thought a neutral was only for 3 circuits in a 3 phase panel or 2 circuits in a singlephase panel ie: (a,b,c,neutral or a,b, neutral) am I missing something here?
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

Southernboys, this is a common belief, but read 225.7. Using a three phase wye service, let's say you had three 20 amp circuits on phase A three on phase B and three on phase C, you could use (1) #6 for the neutral and cover all of these circuits.

Roger

[ April 26, 2005, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

her roger if Im not misreading this article you referenced me to it is refering to oufdoor lighting I do appreciate the information as the next time I install outdoor lighting I will remember that I only need to pull one large neutral
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

Originally posted by nicknorth:
Doesn't 225.7(B) apply to outside branch circuits and feeders
Click to expand...
Yes it does, but there is no prohibition of it in any article, remember the NEC is a permissive code.

Roger
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

This job was done by non licensed person who claimed he could do the job for what i had bid in material alone.any thoughts on what to tell customer would be great.
Click to expand...
Ran in to same problem. A building tenant called me to complain about some circuits we installed last year were tripping. Sent an electrician to go find out why. Maybe they added equipment or something else. Electrician found a NEW Panel installed and a spaghetti of wires above the panel. The owner called after we sent him the bill for the "quick" repair we made. He was po'd about the bill and I agreed to meet him at the job site. I should him the work done by his hack and that it was at best half-a$$ed and I will be calling the electrical inspector. He quickly asked how much it would be to fix it. I told him whatever I quoted you, and started walking away. He just stood there knowing he screwed up to save a buck.
I expect a call in a day or to.
If any licensed (skilled) person sees this job, they will immediately know it was done by a hack!
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

Roger
No offense, but I don't buy using 225.7 on any other article than that which it was intended to cover. Article 225.1 states specifically what it addresses, and inside branch circuits is not mentioned.
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

Powerbillnky, no offense taken. Hospital Grade receptacles are specific to article 517 too, does this mean if I wanted the extra ruggedness of this type of receptacle outside of a hospital I can't use it?

No where is a common neutral specifically prohibited, so if you were an inspector, what article and section would you put on your red tag as the violation?

Roger
 
Re: what to tell the owner of the business

. . . but there is no prohibition of it in any article, remember the NEC is a permissive code.

Some things are not intuitive and this is one of them. What Roger stated is correct, the Code is permissive. You can do whatever you wish unless the Code says you shall not. :D
 
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