What type of HEPA vac are you using for pre 78 work?

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c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
I am shopping around for my HEPA vac system and was wondering what type/brand you are using, or planning to use, to comply with the new lead rules?

c2500
 
GUNNING

GUNNING

Senior Member
Location
Gainesville, Florida
I"m in the money! I'm in the money!

I"m in the money! I'm in the money!




Atrix brand omega vac with a 6 inch beater bar. (sold separately) I've been told they go for about $225. OR for smaller jobs.

base_media

I've been practicing keeping the job cleaner and tighter. Started lining the trash bucket. Got a spritzer bottle and a bottle of windex. Trash bags on the van. Blue tape. Going to get a cleanup tote together and Advertise "RRP EPA LEAD Certified!" with new signage! This is going to be as big as asbestos was in the '70's.
 
ceknight

ceknight

Senior Member
c2500 said:
I am shopping around for my HEPA vac system and was wondering what type/brand you are using, or planning to use, to comply with the new lead rules?
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Festool. I could've found other things to spend that $500 on, but it is a nice vac. The operational costs aren't as high as some others -- be sure to check replacement filter and collection bag costs when you're shopping.

FWIW, both it and the Fein HEPA vac can be trigger-activated by whatever tool you plug into them, a nice feature if you're having a Multimaster cut-in fest. ;)
 
D

__dan

Senior Member
HEPA vac

HEPA vac

c2500 said:
Dan,

That is not considered legal. Ridgid does not make a HEPA unit. The filter alone is not rated for lead.

c2500
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Two layer system, dry bag combined with the HEPA cartridge filter. That might do it.

I've bought two of these and run them with the accessory dry bag and three layer cartridge filter. The cartridge filter stays pretty clean. Ridgid makes a five layer HEPA, allergen rated cartridge filter for this model. I know they work great for sheetrock and concrete dust which usually blow out the other end of standard shop vacs. The dry bag system is great.

I googled this a bit and did not see a list of approved or prohibited vacuums, just requirements for HEPA and allergen rated vacuums.

Home depot does not sell this model but they do sell the dry bags.

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Vac-Filters/index.htm
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
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c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
__dan said:
Two layer system, dry bag combined with the HEPA cartridge filter. That might do it.

I've bought two of these and run them with the accessory dry bag and three layer cartridge filter. The cartridge filter stays pretty clean. Ridgid makes a five layer HEPA, allergen rated cartridge filter for this model. I know they work great for sheetrock and concrete dust which usually blow out the other end of standard shop vacs. The dry bag system is great.

I googled this a bit and did not see a list of approved or prohibited vacuums, just requirements for HEPA and allergen rated vacuums.

Home depot does not sell this model but they do sell the dry bags.

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Vac-Filters/index.htm
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Read the packaging for the filter. I bet you will find it is not for use with lead. I have several Rigid vacs with the HEPA filter. At least I can still use them on post 1977 jobs. In RRP school, as well as lead inspector school, they drilled it into us that it has to me a sealed vac unit. Ceknights link above also points it out.

c2500
 
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c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
e57 said:
I have one too - but it's in need of a beater bar for floors.... I'm looking for an add on.... But gonna wait until I take the silly class first....

IMO Dyson could make a BIGGER fortune in making a decent shop vac...
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I talked with a tool supplier the other day, and to make the FEIN HEPA rated there is an $89 add on charge to the regular vac price. I think I also read there is a beater bar that is operated by the suction as opposed to being powered, but I may be getting them confused.

Which model(s) are you using? I am leaning toward FEIN. The tool place could not verify if the Festool was compliant.

c2500
 
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e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
c2500 said:
I talked with a tool supplier the other day, and to make the FEIN HEPA rated there is an $89 add on charge to the regular vac price. I think I also read there is a beater bar that is operated by the suction as opposed to being powered, but I may be getting them confused.

Which model(s) are you using? I am leaning toward FEIN. The tool place could not verify if the Festool was compliant.

c2500
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My current fein vac only needs HEPA bags ($40) to fit the requirements other than the beater bar for floors - that said you 'could' find a stand up and 'make' it.... But Fein has one - I'm fairly sure it can be used with any vac with the same hose size... But being fein - it costs a few hundred... I'm sure something comparable and cheaper is satisfactory???? (What they say is supply and demand - maybe I should go in the vacuum business?)
 
mjf

mjf

Senior Member
Location
The incredible, yet very expensive, Hudson Valley,
Is it enforceable?????

Is it enforceable?????

According to the definition in 40 CFR 745.83:

"HEPA vacuum means a vacuum cleaner which has been designed with a high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filter as the last filtration stage. A HEPA filter is a filter that is capable of capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency. The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it."

Therefore, renovation firms should look for a vacuum cleaner that was designed to be operated with a HEPA filter, rather than a shop vacuum that can be fitted with a HEPA filter in place of the original basic filter. A vacuum retrofitted with a HEPA filter is not necessarily properly sealed or designed so that all of the intake air goes through the HEPA filter. EPA alsorecommends that renovation firms ask the manufacturer or retailer whether the machine has been tested to ensure that it achieves the high efficiency required of a HEPA filter (capturing 99.97% of 0.3 micron particles).


How do you enforce a "recommendation" or what one "should" do ??




In your area are the new lead laws being enforced?

In my area the local AHJ's want nothing to do with enforcement and the feds want the locals to take care of it.

Granted the laws have only been in effect for a short time, and eventually "they " will sort it out and enforce, but presently zero enforcement.
 
ceknight

ceknight

Senior Member
mjf said:
How do you enforce a "recommendation" or what one "should" do ??
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That has the potential to become a big issue, not so much with the EPA as with liability suits. It's going to be hard to prove we complied with a standard that doesn't exist. ;)

In the meanwhile, I've received assurance (off the record, of course) that it will be a while before EPA even thinks about enforcement action on a properly-certified and trained firm practicing due diligence. When they make an example out of someone in the short term, it's _not_ going to be because s/he was using a HEPA cartridge filter instead of a certified HEPA vac. It'll be for flagrant non-compliance.
 
D

__dan

Senior Member
reply from Rigdgid

reply from Rigdgid

reply from Ridgid. I appreciate the effort to improve the quality of the information posted..

"Thank you for contacting RIDGID? Customer Support.

The RV2600B vac is not recommended to be used when picking up lead paint or any hazardous materials such as toxic chemicals, explosive or flammable materials, asbestos, anthrax, etc?

Our RIDGID filter with HEPA rated material (VF6000) is designed to filter particulates down to 0.3 microns ? particles such as pollens, allergens, dust mites, pet dander.

The material of the VF6000 RIDGID filter is HEPA rated; however the complete filter assembly system is not individually certified to HEPA standards.

However, Pro Team offers a dry only backpack vacuum with a certified HEPA filter, called the LIneVacer?. Additional information on this product can be found on their website at www.Pro-Team.com, or by contacting them at 1-866-888-2168."

It looks like they do not want the liability to attach to them. They are not saying it will not work. More likely they do not want to be the deep pockets that get sued when someone tests positive for lead, for whatever reason.

Also note the use of "not individually certified", don't know what this means. Does each vac have to be individually tested and certified to comply?

I am keeping an open mind about this but I'm more interested in the physical side of it. I've read that in coal burning plants the uranium that comes in with the coal, which is significant, passes through the typical scrubbers and baghouses and leaves through the stack. Beryllium, which is specifically toxic in minute quantities, has been found to travel hundreds of miles and cause illness.

The question I'm interested in is specific performance, is the lead with the paint easily handled by vacuuming or are the particles so small, getting down to the atom size, that they behave more like a gas and are relatively difficult to trap by vacuuming.

One thing the EPA could specify is to vent the vac exhaust to the outside if they fear escape from containment.
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
mjf said:
In your area are the new lead laws being enforced?

In my area the local AHJ's want nothing to do with enforcement and the feds want the locals to take care of it.

Granted the laws have only been in effect for a short time, and eventually "they " will sort it out and enforce, but presently zero enforcement.
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"Enforcement" IMO will be the least of the problem - it's the "liability"...

Sure some local EPA office could get a call from some disgruntled individual - but that person might be 'your client'... Or even an employee... The fines could be up to $35,700 - PER DAY! While you might not get that fine - to hell with a risk like that.... :roll: Remember the government wants money...

However - The way I've read this law - it does not remove you from civil suit - but not complying with it guarantees you lost the civil suit right off... Now why would you end up in a civil suit? Well the EPA is going to have public service announcements about it - and you can guarantee that the same people who operate 1-800 mesothelioma will have a new hot line, and commercials....

"Is little Johnny a 'tard - or maybe just not as smart as you thought he should be? Well that's not your fault! Remember all that money you spent remodeling your home? Well get it all back - and bleed that contractor dry... Call us - we can help..."

If you lack the signed paperwork to back up what you did, and what you told them about their pre-78 house - you're screwed... And it might not be next week - it could be decades from now.

Look ;) I like it no more than anyone else, but I see it as a little dangerous to say 'oh there's no enforcement' - why comply?



But if I have some little card in a trash bag in the garage that says:
  • I gave them a copy of "The Velveteen Rabbit'
  • They signed saying "No knocked up chick or rug-rats are planned to occupy said space."
  • And the feds have may name on file...
If I can use that as a legal condom to isolate myself from some pin-head lawyer looking to separate me from what little winnings I end up with in my later years - damn straight I'll comply. Regardless of what might be 'enforced' today. :D :D ;)
 
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GUNNING

GUNNING

Senior Member
Location
Gainesville, Florida
If its good enough for OJ its good enough for me.

If its good enough for OJ its good enough for me.

If your that worried about Liability and your nest egg stick it in retirement accounts. They cant touch that.
One of the things the instructor said was to form a small company and stick it off to the side to only do lead application work. Insulate yourself from the liability and insure it with Hazardous material handling insurance. It will satisfy the deep pocket divin scum suckin bottom feedin ... customers enough to protect your assets.
Also get a BLL once a year. (Blood lead level).

Anyone know where I can get those 22 page books preprinted?:)
 
C

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
GUNNING said:
Anyone know where I can get those 22 page books preprinted?:)
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You can order them from the EPA...they apparently are backordered though. You can down load them from the EPA site and then add your log or company info to them. They are public domain with no copyright protection.

c2500
 
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