What will the Inspector Say?

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Little Bill

Little Bill

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Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
I was called to look at a job today for an addition. When I opened the main panel I found this. I apologize for the blurry photo, it didn't look blurry on the camera and my batteries died before I could take more. What you see in the bottom of the panel a 1-1/2" or 2" knockout was removed and the wires were just ran up through the opening with no connectors. I'm sure this won't be grandfathered in because it should have never been legal. Just wondering what I'm going to do to fix it. I don't think there are enough knockouts left to route the wires back properly, nor not enough room to drill or punch new ones. Any thoughts?

In the other picture where the other mess is, is at a sub panel. Looks like a doorbell transformer is mounted to the bottom of a junction box. I don't know what if anything is in the junction box because the front of it is covered by a wall. I will have to install a junction box and connect the rest of the exposed wires with MC cable. I will also have to separate the grounded conductors and the grounds here too. Any thoughts on any of this?105.jpg099.jpg104.jpg096.jpg
 
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Pics didn't make it. Add a junction box outside the panel, bring all the offending wires into it, run a short piece of pipe from jbox to the existing panel, extend the leads to their final termination. Make sure everything is properly bonded.
 
zbang said:
Pics didn't make it. Add a junction box outside the panel, bring all the offending wires into it, run a short piece of pipe from jbox to the existing panel, extend the leads to their final termination. Make sure everything is properly bonded.
Click to expand...

I attached the pics. but they didn't show up. HELP Mr. Moderators!:roll:
 
Ok, I'll try this again. the first pic is the bottom of the panel with wires through unprotected opening.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee379/LittleBill1/096.jpg
096.jpg


Next is just the panel model #
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee379/LittleBill1/099.jpg

099.jpg


Next is the back of JB with doorbell transformer mounted on the bottom
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee379/LittleBill1/101.jpg

101.jpg


Next is the sub panel
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee379/LittleBill1/103.jpg

103.jpg


Zbang, the panel is in the kitchen and is flush mounted right above the counter top. I don't see any way to add JB as you said.
 
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There going to let you do all this? :)

Install a closed chase nipple (bolt head-one end) in large bottom opening with reducing washers or remove all the knockout rings and use a full sized closed chase nipple respective of the opening with a plastic screw cap. :)
But the right thing to do is run new individual clasping connectors per size required.

I think I'd rework the lower large circuit and others that exists from below the shelf to enter below the shelf.

The light switch, I'd consided running a piece of emt up through the ceiling and use a one piece change over to grasp the NM, or PVC and to all above ceiling with a coupling with cap. Or just use a bell end insert! Of course rework a new box is required.

The main subfeed, I'd sleeve in PVC and a EL and coupling and cap both would proabably be inside the wall when finished. Or just use a bell end insert!

I do like Zbangs idea.

I'd measure /calculate for what looks to be a 12x 12x 6 maybe and 8x 8 - box with cover, demo the trannie box and train all the NM into new box. The new box will be high and facing the same as existing panel. I'd use a match'n PVC size ~(1 1/4) left handed "EL" from box to subpanel. If you float new box off wall that will be enough room to drop straight down into exisiting panel,and no need for left handed "el". If you use "el" take off from new box at the same height as new subfeed's PVC poking in. Mount the trannie inside.

I'd pre install clasping NM connectors to whats dropping from the ceiling and snug the box to the ceiling. Float the box off the wall for painting and for the one circuit thats coming across the ceiling line. seems theres enought float in the ceiling circuits.

Train the low voltage wire to the corner.

Let us see what U master-mind! :)
 
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We can't say what an inspector will make you do but I certainly would let the homeowner know that there is an issue and fix the wires without connectors and separate the neutrals and grounds in the sub panel.
 
cadpoint said:
There going to let you do all this? :)I'd measure /calculate for what looks to be a 12x 12x 6 maybe and 8x 8 - box with cover, demo the trannie box and train all the NM into new box. The new box will be high and facing the same as existing panel. I'd use a match'n PVC size ~(1 1/4) left handed "EL" from box to subpanel. If you float new box off wall that will be enough room to drop straight down into exisiting panel,and no need for left handed "el". If you use "el" take off from new box at the same height as new subfeed's PVC poking in. Mount the trannie inside.

I'd pre install clasping NM connectors to whats dropping from the ceiling and snug the box to the ceiling. Float the box off the wall for painting and for the one circuit thats coming across the ceiling line. seems theres enought float in the ceiling circuits.

Train the low voltage wire to the corner.

Let us see what U master-mind! :)
Click to expand...


"Shocking, isn't it! (I hope not!)

The sub panel in the 3rd pic, I think I will replace that with a larger panel. That's where I plan to feed the new addition from and I need more space. Plus I need to separate the grounds and neutrals




Dennis said:
#

It is SEU not SER so he would need to replace the cable. Good eyes old man.

#
03-06-11 12:23 PM
augie47

does the subpanel have a 4 wire feed ? (looks like SE)

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03-06-11 12:18 PM
Dennis Alwon

We can't say what an inspector will make you do but I certainly would let the homeowner know that there is an issue and fix the wires without connectors and separate the neutrals and grounds in the sub panel.


It it SE and looks like they ran a separate EGC. It was raining bad I didn't get to look outside to see where it came from.
I plan on having the inspector look and see what he wants. He may want more, but may let me slide on some things. But I want to do it right.
Click to expand...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Bill, there should be no egc coming from a sub panel. To do this correctly you need to run a 4 wire (SER) cable and separate the neutrals from the grounds.
Click to expand...

Thanks Dennis, I understand that. I was trying to describe what someone had attempted to do. They were calling this the main panel, but as you can see it is a MLO panel. They ran the SE cables in and ran a separate wire as what I saw as an attempt at the GEC. Not sure yet where that even connects to. I'm going back to see what's going on outside. This is not looking good.

hurk27 said:
hurk27

and get rid of that lamp cord on the bottom left in the sub panel, pic 103.jpg
Probably non-grounded UF lol

I'm going to use the lamp cord to connect my work light while demo-ing this panel!;)
Click to expand...
 
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