What Wiring Method is This?

Status
Not open for further replies.
busman

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Sorry I don't have a photo and I've only been in the trade for 12 years, so I've never installed it. The type in question is a service drop with 3 individual conductors (residential). Obviously it's all now done with tri-plex (which is Messenger Supported Wiring).

The question is what Wiring Method was the old type and is it still valid? I have a service that uses this type and is touching a tree trunk. PoCo says it's fine and it's in their jurisdiction, but won't give the new home buyer anything in writing. I wondered what the NEC says about it. Also if anyone knows the NESC, I'd love that take also.

As always, thanks for the help.

Mark
 
Article 398 open wiring on insulators.

But there is some question if the NEC allows it on poles.

Of course what you describe sounds like utility conductors outside the scope of the NEC
 
A lineman would just call that "three strand", for slang. Lots and lots of it still exists in my area. Many of the aerial drops have now been converted to triplex, but there's still plenty of 3-strand secondary from pole to pole down the minor streets.
 
NESC 218 says vegetation that may damage the ungrounded supply conductors should be pruned or removed. If pruning or removal is not practical, the conductors should be separated from the tree to avoid abrasion damage and grounding of the circuit through the tree.
 
Also, we call this open supply conductors (open wire). We generally replace it with triplex when upgrading as it takes less pole space, etc. but it is still a valid wiring method.
 
iwire said:
Article 398 open wiring on insulators.
Click to expand...

I looked at "open wiring on insulators", but the maximum spacing between supports was 15 feet, so I figured you'd never get service drop conductors that short. I can't find a NEC method that would make this a legal install.

Here they are under PoCo jurisdiction and they said "no problem" but you could cut down the tree. This is an 80-year old Oak in a very old neighborhood. The neighbors would flip if it were cut down.

Thanks for the info.

Mark
 
busman said:
I can't find a NEC method that would make this a legal install.
Click to expand...

I am confused.

Why are you looking for an NEC section allowing it when it is not an NEC installation? :-?

If it was triplex it would not be NEC complainant either, the conductors would be to small and they triplex the power company uses is not normally UL listed which means it would not be NEC complaint.

Here they are under PoCo jurisdiction and they said "no problem" but you could cut down the tree. This is an 80-year old Oak in a very old neighborhood. The neighbors would flip if it were cut down.
Click to expand...

Generally there are laws in place that allow the power company to trim anyones trees if they are interfering with the wires.

I had the power company running an overhead primary into the job we where doing, the run was right down the property line and the power company started trimming trees that where on the the next door neighbors property. The homeowner cam out and started flipping out, the cops where called and in the end the tress got trimmed.
 
iwire said:
Generally there are laws in place that allow the power company to trim anyones trees if they are interfering with the wires.

I had the power company running an overhead primary into the job we where doing, the run was right down the property line and the power company started trimming trees that where on the the next door neighbors property. The homeowner cam out and started flipping out, the cops where called and in the end the tress got trimmed.
Click to expand...
There is the eminent domain law but it is better to work with the approval of the land owners.

We have found it bad form to start cutting without asking. You are just asking for trouble. Besides, you have to put yourself in the land owners shoes and ask how you would feel. If the line is existing, most owners are aware that we will maintain the right of way and protect the line.

In my experience, it would be rare to cut trees on someone's property without asking. If your neighbor's tree is growing onto your property, I think you can trim to the line, but I would talk to the owner first.

We usually try to work most any way we can to save the most valuable trees, even if it makes for a tougher route. It is just good business and there is no need to be hard-nosed about it.

[edit: and don't try using eminent domain on Indian land. I know of the site remains of a substation that had to be re-located because the chief got ticked off when he was told the supply line was coming through his land whether he liked it or not. The chief wanted it to go one way and the POCO rep wanted it to go another. Seems someone forgot that eminent domain don't apply on Indian land]
 
Last edited:
Here they are under PoCo jurisdiction and they said "no problem" but you could cut down the tree. This is an 80-year old Oak in a very old neighborhood. The neighbors would flip if it were cut down.
In our area the power company won't fix it until it is broke.

One option in our area is you could have the wires buried.
Makes for a nicer looking service, too.

They do charge us.
I have no facts, but I have heard that they are regulated by the govt. and are not allowed to make a profit on it. Since they are upgrading their own equipment.
One way around this is to sub it out to a private utilities contractor.
 
iwire said:
I think they have the opposite thought here.

I have never seen them ask first.
Click to expand...
It would be a big stink down here to cut down the tree that somebody's grandpappy planted. You would think ol' grandpappy was buried under the thing.:roll:

Plus, a lot of people down here have guns for hunting and such.
 
We no longer install open wire service drops unless the service is over 400 amperes. Also, we will not trim trees for service drops (that is the property owner's responsibility). We have and do place line hoses on service drops where they are rubbing on limbs or trunks.

If we are going across someone else's property with a new primary line, we will have an easement or will get one before we cross it. If we have to trim trees to get through, the easement will give us the right to cut. If it is to run a line for a new service, the person/company we are installing the service for will make arrangements for an easement or service will not be provided. :smile:
 
iwire said:
I am confused.

Why are you looking for an NEC section allowing it when it is not an NEC installation? :-?

If it was triplex it would not be NEC complainant either, the conductors would be to small and they triplex the power company uses is not normally UL listed which means it would not be NEC complaint.
Click to expand...
Bob,

Sorry to be confusing. Here's the story. Mr. S is selling his home to Mr. B in an old historic neighborhood (100+ years old). HI tells Mr. B that the wires touching the tree are a hazard. Mr. S calls me. I tell him to call PoCo (it's not my jurisdiction). He calls PoCo. They say it's fine, but won't put it in writing. So now Mr. B is still uncomfortable. Noone in this old neighborhood wants to lose this tree.

My question was related to the fact that I have seen feeders (3 individual wires) that were under the NEC (home to garage for instance). I wanted to know what wiring method allowed this and when it stopped being in the NEC. It seems that Messenger Supported Wiring is the replacement.

Thanks,

Mark
 
My concern would be that the neutral might break,that could cause major problems.Seems to me the poco is also taking on a liability issue here should anyone get hurt.Something needs to be done but as to who pays or how is a local issue.
 
iwire said:
I had the power company running an overhead primary into the job we where doing, the run was right down the property line and the power company started trimming trees that where on the the next door neighbors property. The homeowner cam out and started flipping out, the cops where called and in the end the tress got trimmed.
Click to expand...

How did the utility get an easement on a property line w/o the next door property owner being aware? A utility can't just string up a line anywhere, and then declare that area a utility easement and do whatever it pleases...
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
My concern would be that the neutral might break,that could cause major problems.Seems to me the poco is also taking on a liability issue here should anyone get hurt.Something needs to be done but as to who pays or how is a local issue.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what happens when they fail. I fixed one like that about 4 years ago where the neutral broke because it was rubbing on a tree. The panel caught fire, the cable tv line ( being bonded to the neutral at the main ) melted. Wiped out the TV, furnace controls, refrigerator motor, and a few other small appliances.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
How did the utility get an easement on a property line w/o the next door property owner being aware? A utility can't just string up a line anywhere, and then declare that area a utility easement and do whatever it pleases...
Click to expand...

Apparently they did and they can.

As I said the police where called out and the cutting resumed.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
My concern would be that the neutral might break,that could cause major problems.Seems to me the poco is also taking on a liability issue here should anyone get hurt.
Click to expand...

You see that as a larger possibility then the neutral breaking on a tri-plex that is also supporting the other conductors?
 
iwire said:
You see that as a larger possibility then the neutral breaking on a tri-plex that is also supporting the other conductors?
Click to expand...

Both are major problem and we all know what would happen.I did see this happen on a triplex.Took me a few minutes trying to find where i lost the neutral.This did not happen overnight.I did all i could do by turning breakers off and calling poco.As to who pays for damage i will leave that up to her insurance company and lawyers for poco.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top