What would you charge, how many hours?

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bjp_ne_elec

Senior Member
Location
Southern NH
Here's what you have to do:

1. Install six (6) new recessed Halo lights (only items to be supplied by owner).
2. Single switch installed, but owner wants to have two half-switched recepatcles in two locations - one on the wall opposite the switch, one on other end of wall where switch is located. So we're bumping this up to a two gang switch box.
3. Feed with existing circuit - presently two flourescent 1 x 4 fixtures.

Thanks,

Brett
 
I would charge for however many hours it took to do the work.

Are they asking for an estimate for this work? :confused: Need lots more information, like wall finish material, access from above, damage permitted, etc.
 
1. Construction is 2" x 4" studs
2. it's second floor, and there is attic above - loaded with loose batts of
insulation - can access the attic through a pull down set of stairs
3. walls are finished sheet rock
4. let's assume minimal damage is allowed - as the ceiling is going to be
painted, as it's a remodel job
5. method is Romex - using existing feed
6. owner is supplying only the six (6) recessed cans
7. inspection required - owner pays the town office
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
4. let's assume minimal damage is allowed - as the ceiling is going to be
painted, as it's a remodel job
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Are we also to assume these are remodel cans?
 
Celtic - a very interesting and important question - the owner did not purchase the remodel cans - as he said the remodel cans were twice as much. Let's assume we're not using the remodel cans - as the job probably won't have time to order them.

Thanks,

Brett
 
If you have access from above, it's no big deal breaker. It just adds a little bit of unnecessary time face down attaching the spreader bars to ceiling joists and wiring them up from above. Why in the world you'd let a homeowner purchase materials... well... lesson learned, huh?
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
C Let's assume we're not using the remodel cans - as the job probably won't have time to order them.
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Don't the big box stores carry them?

Anyway...

I'd go a bit deeper on the time than Marc did...why?

Well, from experience of course ;)

I put 10 remodel cans in my LR. The "plan" did not work out as the joist layout would have led to an unsightly fixture layout - this involved laying out the room about 3x. Maybe it's because I'm anal...maybe because I wanted it to look "right"...in any case, the layout was a PITA because of the way I wanted the finished product to look.

********

Marc...care to explain how 2 men will be slower/more time than 1 man?
I usually figure it the oppossite...1 man will take 3x as many hours as 2 men (NOTE: Taking HOURS not MANHOURS)
If 2 men take 2.5 hours, 1 man would take 7.5.
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
Celtic - so the 10 cans - how long did it take you. I'm just talking actual work time. If I'm in my own house, I tend to take a lot of "coffee breaks". :)
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I think at one point I stopped and watched a movie...LOL

This job fell into the catergory of "non-standard"....
- The 2nd floor is undergoing renovations...I was able to cut a "trench" in the floor for the wiring bewteen cans/switches
- Lights are on their own circuit...hap an opportunity to run that feed along with numerous feeds and tele/cable/data lines to 2nd flr.

All told, for me, myself and my "set-up" (from another thread... #3), about 10 hours - NOT including picking up the materials...I bought the cans when I had the idea, wire/boxes leftover from some other job, etc.
 
celtic said:
I put 10 remodel cans in my LR. The "plan" did not work out as the joist layout would have led to an unsightly fixture layout - this involved laying out the room about 3x. Maybe it's because I'm anal...maybe because I wanted it to look "right"...in any case, the layout was a PITA because of the way I wanted the finished product to look.
Click to expand...

I'm going through the same insanity right now, trying to put side channel speakers in my den ceiling so my 7.1 channel surround sound thingy actually surrounds me. I've spent several hours staring at the ceiling, and that's several hours more than it's going to take to fish four speaker wires up the wall and install the speakers.

Marc...care to explain how 2 men will be slower/more time than 1 man?
I usually figure it the oppossite...1 man will take 3x as many hours as 2 men (NOTE: Taking HOURS not MANHOURS)
If 2 men take 2.5 hours, 1 man would take 7.5.
Click to expand...

Very few tasks can be subdivided with no interaction between workers. Worker interaction creates drag on productivity -- one worker never has to have meetings to discuss what they are going to do, and if they do start talking to themselves, well, there's a name for that ;) . Unless it's tasks that REQUIRE two workers, like pulling wires in conduit, having two people "share" a task tends to result in the task taking longer.

A guy by the name of Frederick Brooks wrote extensively about this in a book called "The Mythical Man-Month". It explains why projects that are running late tend to run even more late when new people are added to try and speed things up. You can figure it out for yourself if you imagine what would happen if you had, say, a 10 room house (4BR, 2BT, KT, LR, DR, DN) with 10 electricians all working at the same time, one per room.
 
tallgirl said:
Very few tasks can be subdivided with no interaction between workers. Worker interaction creates drag on productivity -- one worker never has to have meetings to discuss what they are going to do, and if they do start talking to themselves, well, there's a name for that ;) . Unless it's tasks that REQUIRE two workers, like pulling wires in conduit, having two people "share" a task tends to result in the task taking longer.
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And you know this due to your vast experience at running electrical crews?

In my experience two workers will get the job done in less man hours than one worker. That is assuming the task can utilize two workers.

Installing multiple cans in a ceiling is a task that can be done efficiently by more than one worker at the same time.

Worker interaction creates drag on productivity --
Click to expand...

:roll:

That depends on the workers, most of our workers enjoy each other and like to compete with each other. This results in increased productivity.
 
iwire said:
And you know this due to your vast experience at running electrical crews?

In my experience two workers will get the job done in less man hours than one worker. That is assuming the task can utilize two workers.

Installing multiple cans in a ceiling is a task that can be done efficiently by more than one worker at the same time.



:roll:

That depends on the workers, most of our workers enjoy each other and like to compete with each other. This results in increased productivity.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree with you iwire. I have a few other electrical brothers that do strictly residential. Taking more time to rough in and trim out, equates to lost profits. The quicker they can get done, the quicker they can move on to the next house. I work with them on the sides when I get a chance, and it's always wfo. Nobody's b/s'in around, just a fast and steady pace.
 
iwire said:
And you know this due to your vast experience at running electrical crews?

In my experience two workers will get the job done in less man hours than one worker. That is assuming the task can utilize two workers.

Installing multiple cans in a ceiling is a task that can be done efficiently by more than one worker at the same time.
Click to expand...

No, it comes from years of being a project manager on multi-million dollar projects. It's been validated on every multi-person project I've ever managed, whether working with programmers or working with house gutting crews, and that includes all aspects of residential construction from forming slabs through final trimout.

If two people can install multiple cans with no interaction, that would be an example of a task that can be subdivided with no worker interaction. But at some point, unless those cans are completely unrelated to each other, the two workers have to interact.

Go read the book. It's about 40 years old, but most of what he writes on the subject of worker productivity is still true today.
 
tallgirl said:
I'm going through the same insanity right now, trying to put side channel speakers in my den ceiling so my 7.1 channel surround sound thingy actually surrounds me.
Click to expand...

I did that first...I wanted music while I worked ...LMAO :D
 
tallgirl said:
Very few tasks can be subdivided with no interaction between workers. Worker interaction creates drag on productivity -- one worker never has to have meetings to discuss what they are going to do, and if they do start talking to themselves, well, there's a name for that ;) . Unless it's tasks that REQUIRE two workers, like pulling wires in conduit, having two people "share" a task tends to result in the task taking longer.
Click to expand...

iwire said:
In my experience two workers will get the job done in less man hours than one worker. That is assuming the task can utilize two workers.

Installing multiple cans in a ceiling is a task that can be done efficiently by more than one worker at the same time.
Click to expand...

Installing cans is a perfect example of a 2 man job .... one man is drilling the holes, the other slinging wire or humping material in....then one guy is installing the fixtures, while the other cleans up.
This isn't highly technical work, a little converstaion isn't going to slow the job down.
What will slow the job down is one man running around trying to do it all and forgetting things/dropping things..like a wirenut - another trip up and down the ladder...all the while talking to himself in French @#% &*!.
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
mdshunk - thanks for your reply on my PM - and I tried to reply, but it indicates your mailbox is full. What area are you in?
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All I'm saying is that if you are working alone, have access from above, and you're only doing 6 cans, if it takes you more than 4 hours you should give yourself a whipping. If that 1 gang box you're changing out to a 2 gang box is in an insulated wall, I'd give you an extra 45 minutes.
 
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