What would you charge to replace attic K&T

[ramsy]

Owner won't rewire walls, only the attic knob & tube to make way for insulation workers, not just NEC 394.12(5). Under roof will be rolled insulation, attic floor will be blown so j-boxes can be easily exposed.

So I'm killing every K&T penetration (wiring-method transition NEC 300.15 & 16) with 12-2 MC, proper j-box, fittings, & pigtails. Saved the owner some T&M by choosing a 320.23 method (no runners or hole hog needed beyond 6 feet from scuttle hole), but my labor still seems to end up ridiculous.

This property developer got me for an emergency Sunday. I solved a smoked TV cable, broken service drop, and got the POCO to repair it in a few hours. Now he's trying my services on his personal property, without taking other bids. I don?t feel confident with my rates, in new territory, without other bids to compare.

This dark attic is cramped w/ lots of AC & heating duct, and the shuffling of plywood to lay across is slowing me down. An existing Romex attempt (rats nest) requires rubber gloves, and identifying switch leg from phase from neutral, with K&T requires time & skill.

The first circuit w/ all boxes took me 12-hrs to rough, I felt it should have been 6-hrs or less, cut my rates in half, and only charged $500. The second circuit is going at a similar pace. About four remain at 40 to 60 feet long, also serving multiple outlets.

Every time I come out of the attic, he asks are we done yet, and I can't bare to tell him we haven't really started. Any ideas on a reasonable Not To Exceed, or is 12 hrs X Five circuits ($2500) reasonable for an attic rewire, for replacing 5 K&T circuits?

 

[quogueelectric]

If he keeps badgering you I would tell him to pay me for what I have done and walk. Your price is about 40 bucks an hour now and that is too cheap. Dont be afraid to walk and let him deal with the others out there. My dad always taught me to not deal with the pita customers there are too many good customers out there to have to deal with the pita customers. They will find birds of a feather to really hose them and do a crappy job. They belong together dont let natural selection fail here.

 

[stickboy1375]

The first circuit w/ all boxes took me 12-hrs to rough, I felt it should have been 6-hrs or less, cut my rates in half, and only charged $500. The second circuit is going at a similar pace. About four remain at 40 to 60 feet long, also serving multiple outlets.

You worked 12 hrs for 500 dollars? Might just as well stay home.

 

[mivey]

Owner won't rewire walls, only the attic knob & tube to make way for insulation workers, not just NEC 394.12(5). Under roof will be rolled insulation, attic floor will be blown so j-boxes can be easily exposed.

So I'm killing every K&T penetration (wiring-method transition NEC 300.15 & 16) with 12-2 MC, proper j-box, fittings, & pigtails. Saved the owner some T&M by choosing a 320.23 method (no runners or hole hog needed beyond 6 feet from scuttle hole), but my labor still seems to end up ridiculous.

This property developer got me for an emergency Sunday. I solved a smoked TV cable, broken service drop, and got the POCO to repair it in a few hours. Now he's trying my services on his personal property, without taking other bids. I don?t feel confident with my rates, in new territory, without other bids to compare.

This dark attic is cramped w/ lots of AC & heating duct, and the shuffling of plywood to lay across is slowing me down. An existing Romex attempt (rats nest) requires rubber gloves, and identifying switch leg from phase from neutral, with K&T requires time & skill.

The first circuit w/ all boxes took me 12-hrs to rough, I felt it should have been 6-hrs or less, cut my rates in half, and only charged $500. The second circuit is going at a similar pace. About four remain at 40 to 60 feet long, also serving multiple outlets.

Every time I come out of the attic, he asks are we done yet, and I can't bare to tell him we haven't really started. Any ideas on a reasonable Not To Exceed, or is 12 hrs X Five circuits ($2500) reasonable for an attic rewire, for replacing 5 K&T circuits?

I would have a talk with the customer, explain what you are facing the same as you did here, that it will take you another 48 hours if the 1st circuit is a good benchmark, tell them the remaining cost at your PROFITABLE rate, and let them decide if they want you to continue.

I would not keep taking a beating on this job.

 

[SiddMartin]

I would have a talk with the customer, explain what you are facing the same as you did here, that it will take you another 48 hours if the 1st circuit is a good benchmark, tell them the remaining cost at your PROFITABLE rate, and let them decide if they want you to continue.

I would not keep taking a beating on this job.

excellent point, and I agree. Explain to the cust exactly what is going on, and then it will be up to him if he can afford it or not.

 

[mdshunk]

"replace attic K&T" often necessarily also means fishing at least some stuff in the walls anew. Otherwise, you end up with 30 million junction boxes for every switch drop, home run, etc. If it ends up being quicker to fish down to a switch box rather than change from K&T to romex at a junction box at the top plate, that's exactly what I do.

 

[hillbilly]

If he keeps badgering you I would tell him to pay me for what I have done and walk.

My sentiments...exactly.

Lay it on the line and give him the facts exactly as you see them.

Tell him....It will take approximately this long to finish and cost you approximately this much.

Let him decide if he wants you to continue.
The way it sounds, you're going to have a hard time getting paid because the customer apparently has no idea the amount of work involved.

I personally would have refused the job anyway....been there...done that....and I know what you're up against.

I can imagine being in a closed attic....re-working old K&T....and having to deal with "are you about finished?" every time I come out for air.
I'm glad that it's not me.....I might just walk anyway.

Just my opinion
steve

 

[Thomp]

What would you charge to replace attic K&T

I wouldn’t want to do it if they paid me in gold bars and sprinkled diamonds on top, but I would. Hang in there Thomp

 

[growler]

What would you charge to replace attic K&T
I wouldn?t want to do it if they paid me in gold bars and sprinkled diamonds on top, but I would.

That's about the size of it. I went into an attic for about 20 minutes early this morning at about 8:00 AM and it was already a bit warm then I had to go back up there at about 2:00 PM for about 15 minutes and it was unbelievable just how hot it was. Another 5 minutes and I think I would have died. Didn't expect to have to deal with temperatures that hot until the day after judgement day.

Whatever you get for attic work you earn every penny. :grin: :grin:

 

[Sparky555]

Whatever you get for attic work you earn every penny. :grin: :grin:

My feelings exactly. I'm looking closely at my rates for attic work (ceiling fan wiring). I spent all day in an attic Monday. It was 85 outside & over 100 in the attic. If it's not profitable someone else can have it.

Dave

 

[Chamuit]

I would have a talk with the customer, explain what you are facing the same as you did here, that it will take you another 48 hours if the 1st circuit is a good benchmark, tell them the remaining cost at your PROFITABLE rate, and let them decide if they want you to continue.

I would not keep taking a beating on this job.

My sentiments too. I have done work in the past as a wet-behind-the-ears EC and learned really quick that jobs like yours wind up making you miserable and broke.

 

[ramsy]

Forgot to mention that I detailed completed tasks and closed the invoice each day, so this owner paid for my time & material after each visit, and the checks were good. Cutting my hours on the invoice was my idea, because of my own uncertainty.

With a better understanding of the value of this work, I just phoned the owner & explained the difference between my one man show w/ multiple visits vs an electrical crew's single-weekend project. I explained, using the 1st circuit as a benchmark, I could charge more than a full crew after completion.

The owner said paying me T&M is better than paying a fixed price for their regular contractor's employees, and it may go faster for me after doing a few more circuits. (if so that would be the point I felt confident charging for all my hours, rather than cutting my hours in half on the invoice). This owner seems comfortable with that, and with a 0600 start, giving me more time before the attic gets unbearable around noon.

Many thanks to everyone for helping me get a grip on this, and communicate the more appropriate expectations to the customer.

 

[ceknight]

"replace attic K&T" often necessarily also means fishing at least some stuff in the walls anew. Otherwise, you end up with 30 million junction boxes for every switch drop, home run, etc. If it ends up being quicker to fish down to a switch box rather than change from K&T to romex at a junction box at the top plate, that's exactly what I do.

That was my thought when I read the OP. When I rewire attic K&T, all the overhead lamps and switches in the floor level below get rewired as part of the job. It's so bloody easy to do while you're up there, easier than installing 30 million JBs, that it's a no-brainer. I don't even care if the customer doesn't want it done, it's going to get done just to save me some work and get me out of the attic for a spell.

 

[quogueelectric]

The most important thing you can remember is that it is not your fault that he has k+t in thier house.

 

[e57]

What would you charge to replace attic K&T? T&M at my normal rate....

Someone asks how much - I crawl up there on T&M at my normal rate to get a better idea. At which point I charge T&M at my normal rate for the rest. They ask if I'm "DONE YET?" I say 'no', but the rest will be T&M at my normal rate. Get the picture here? :wink:

However - depending on how you feel about it. Since you wont profit a dime from this advice or the job you're doing from the sound of it - for a few hundred bucks on plywood, and a laborer you could lay a complete cover over the K&T areas and then insulate over it..... Whats wrong with this K&T anyway? Too old? Short of additional load, or damage - what is wrong with it? I assume it gets hot where you are - hows the insulation on the conductors?

 

[ramsy]

- for a few hundred bucks on plywood, and a laborer you could lay a complete cover over the K&T areas and then insulate over it.....

1) If the knob & tube had been nailed below the floor level the plywood cover would be a brilliant option, flush with the floor. In this case, the knobs protrude on top of the studs, making a covering more complex with stand off blocks, etc.

2) Not sure I?d recommend covering the k&t since a much larger area above the walls would also be unserviceable.

3) I am eligible, but won?t get help or workers comp. for such small jobs. Laborers are getting smart on how to file claims, and I won?t take that chance. Owner / builders could hire more help under their umbrella policy.

 

[ramsy]

(to avoid 30 million junction boxes) If it ends up being quicker to fish down to a switch box rather than change from K&T to romex at a junction box at the top plate, that's exactly what I do.

The owner claims a previous fire revealed some of the wall wiring, and it was not a simple matter of fishing down to the outlets to replace with Romex. This owner doesn?t want me to attempt it. The inside diameter of the ceramic tubes may not fit any cable. The walls may need to be opened to either re-drill the blocks or knock out the ceramic inserts.

I can argue this idea for ceiling fixtures with accessible KO?s. Terminating the new cable in the fixture box would be better and perhaps faster than adding a separate junction in the attic.

 

[ramsy]

Since you wont profit a dime from this advice or the job you're doing from the sound of it ..

I greatly appreciate this advice, and try to test and apply it for the right time. Retarded implementation of good advice happens if I?m not at your level, or can?t charge for your skills, or must fairly represent my level of incompetence to the customer.

I miss some TV to get paid 2-4 times what the equivalent corporation pays employees / me, for the same work. Before this advice I cut half the hours off my invoices when I felt unproductive.

After this advice I encouraged the customer to check competitive bid rates, and to expect my rates to work out similar. This customer sees some integrity, reads my contract on the back of my invoice, sees me obeying the local laws spelled out there, and claims more confidence and control with me than a corporate employee.

Weekdays, I go back to work with my corporate contractor, who pays me a fraction of what I made per hour over the weekend. I witness a new layoff each day, observe clinical-mental problems with co-workers dependant on their job security, and learn the art of finger pointing the rat, and throwing each other under the bus.

After the weekdays, I rely on my weekend problems to convalesce, lay back in my chair, and let you guys be my shrink.

 

[mivey]

Forgot to mention that I detailed completed tasks and closed the invoice each day, so this owner paid for my time & material after each visit, and the checks were good. Cutting my hours on the invoice was my idea, because of my own uncertainty.

With a better understanding of the value of this work, I just phoned the owner & explained the difference between my one man show w/ multiple visits vs an electrical crew's single-weekend project. I explained, using the 1st circuit as a benchmark, I could charge more than a full crew after completion.

The owner said paying me T&M is better than paying a fixed price for their regular contractor's employees, and it may go faster for me after doing a few more circuits. (if so that would be the point I felt confident charging for all my hours, rather than cutting my hours in half on the invoice). This owner seems comfortable with that, and with a 0600 start, giving me more time before the attic gets unbearable around noon.

Many thanks to everyone for helping me get a grip on this, and communicate the more appropriate expectations to the customer.

That is a great story and I'm happy for you.