What would you do?

[jerrysounds]

(Moderator note, Jerry I took the liberty of breaking your post up so it is easier to to read.)


Here's the story, I go to a call on Saturday where the lights go dim when you turn on any appliance in the house, 240 or 120volt.

So I go out to the service panel and take a look at the connections on the house side. Everything is good. I pull the cover off of service side of the panel and find the neutral is discolored. I then turn off the main, then check to see if the neutral is loose. The neutral lug falls off the neutral bar in my hand with very little effort !!

I tell the HO that he needs a new panel. I temp the neutral line to the load side neutral bar to give the HO power till Monday when I can make the change.(I'm a nice but stupid Guy I Guess). Monday morning I get a call from HO, He wants me to wait for the insurance adjuster to take a look at the panel in its currant condition so he may make an accurate estimate. Fine, I wait.

The next day the HO calls me and says he is canceling the contract. The Insurance adjuster (from something Farm) insists that the panel is still usable. Apparently he came with his own electrician and a SDGE (power company) crew. They told the HO that they will install a new lug on the burnt neutral bar and the panel will be as good as new. They also told the HO that this will NOT need a City inspection!!

Here's the question?

1) Doesn't the new lug need to be inspected by a UL certified engineer, an engineer or at the very least a city inspector? In NEC 110.12 it says we are not to use any part that is damaged or burnt.

2) The power company (SDGE) can make repairs to there equipment but can they make repairs to the HOs equipment and can they do it without inspections?

3) If the neutral bar is not sufficiently burnt to be replaced how damaged dose it have to be before we as electricians can tell our costumers that we have to replace the parts.

I am a little mad about this, not only did the power company and the insurance company take money out of my pocket but they are making it seem like we were out to take advantage of the HO. These guys are not very familiar with the NEC or the NFPA (which also say that you must replace any parts that are damaged in any way). What do you say????

Thanks Jerry
___________

 

[iwire]

The next day the HO calls me and says he is canceling the contract.

Was there really a contract or just an agreement?

The Insurance adjuster (from something Farm) insists that the panel is still usable. Apparently he came with his own electrician and a SDGE (power company) crew.

They told the HO that they will install a new lug on the burnt neutral bar and the panel will be as good as new.

It is certainly possible to be repaired.

They also told the HO that this will NOT need a City inspection!!

If this is true or not can only be answered by someone in that area.

Here's the question?

1) Doesn't the new lug need to be inspected by a UL certified engineer, an engineer

No the NEC does not require that, the AHJ can approve the repair without needing UL or an engineer. On the other hand the AHJ can decide they would like to have it checked by the listing agency.

or at the very least a city inspector?

Where I am I think the law would require an inspection, if that would actually happen or not is another issue altogether. I think most would make the repair without inspection.

In NEC 110.12 it says we are not to use any part that is damaged or burnt.

No, it does not really say exactly that.

110.12 Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.

Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.

If the bar just looks a little bad but still functions fine in my opinion it can be left in place. Of course I have not seen the part in question so I can't say if I would say it needs replacement.

2) The power company (SDGE) can make repairs to there equipment but can they make repairs to the HOs equipment and can they do it without inspections?

Where I am it requires a license to do 'non-utility' wiring. But you also said they brought an electrician.

3) If the neutral bar is not sufficiently burnt to be replaced how damaged dose it have to be before we as electricians can tell our costumers that we have to replace the parts.

It is imposable to answer that question, it depends on the damage, but you could have offered the home owner the option of a panel replacement or a repair. You could have ordered correct repair parts and come back when they came in.

Lets face it you jumped on a service change because it is good money. I would likely have done the same.

I am a little mad about this,

Yeah, that comes across pretty clearly.

not only did the power company and the insurance company take money out of my pocket

From the HOs perspective you where trying to take money out of their pocket.

but they are making it seem like we were out to take advantage of the HO.

If the panel could be repaired that is kind if what you where doing. (Remember I said I would likely have done the same thing)

These guys are not very familiar with the NEC or the NFPA

Very true.

(which also say that you must replace any parts that are damaged in any way).

Not so true.

What do you say????

I say take a deep breath, remain professional and move on, there is no bright side to trying to pursue this further (Unless you really did have a written contract.)

 

[growler]

Well Jerry you still get to bill the customer for a nice week end emergency service call and temporary repairs to the panel. The other electrician has to warranty the work because he is doing permanent repairs. All in all you can probably make out a lot better than the other guy.

I wouldn't want to repair the neutral without an inspection because if anything goes wrong in the near future the insurance company may come after ever who does the repairs ( it's best to be on the safe side ). I don't like to do a simple repair on a burned item because it is debatable if the repair is sufficient and then there is the warranty issue.

You made a judgement call that a new panel is needed so document this on your invoice and stick by it. Cover yourself and let the other guy take the chances.

The insurance adjuster's job is to get things done cheap and your job is to do work that you are comfortable with and make money.

 

[knoppdude]

Just bill him for your time, and walk away, and if he signed a service and repair agreement, it will be that much easier to collect. I know you are angry, I think we have all been treated like this before, but this HO is not worth it.

 

[ceb58]

Well Jerry you still get to bill the customer for a nice week end emergency service call and temporary repairs to the panel. The other electrician has to warranty the work because he is doing permanent repairs. All in all you can probably make out a lot better than the other guy.

I wouldn't want to repair the neutral without an inspection because if anything goes wrong in the near future the insurance company may come after ever who does the repairs ( it's best to be on the safe side ). I don't like to do a simple repair on a burned item because it is debatable if the repair is sufficient and then there is the warranty issue.

You made a judgement call that a new panel is needed so document this on your invoice and stick by it. Cover yourself and let the other guy take the chances.

The insurance adjuster's job is to get things done cheap and your job is to do work that you are comfortable with and make money.

Great words of wisdom.
Bill for your time and spell it out that you feel that replacement is in order. Then let some one else take on the liability