What would you guys/gals do?

[busman]

All,

Customer just bought a 1939 house (no home inspection). The place is an encyclopedia of NEC violations. The main panel is split-bus with 4 2-pole in the top half (one is the 60 amp to the lower half). The other two poles spots in the upper half are single poles (an obvious violation of the 6 disc. rule). The lower half has all but 2 locations filled with double-up breakers. I believe I convinced her that a service upgrade is required. In the mean-time I have been troubleshooting other peripheral problems (no GFCI's in bathrooms, receptacles painted over, etc). There is also a sub-panel fed from the lower half by a 30 amp breaker. The sub has four 15 amp circuits in a six space MLO.

One of the things she wanted was to change the gas clothes dryer for electric. I told her a few days ago that this was not practical/possible given the full nature of the main panel and the small sub-panel.

When I show up today - there is the electric dryer on a 30 amp 2-pole in the sub-panel. It is run with 10-2 WG. A violation of the neutral grounding rules. Not to mention that the dryer is using the entire capacity of the sub-panel.

I told the customer that I was upset that she disregarded my recommendation and asked who did the work (thinking it was the appliance installers). Turns out she had a friend-of-a-friend do this work. My first instinct was to walk-off immediately - in fear that my work was being mixed with obviously unqualified work. I finished the job I was working when I found this, but my gut reaction is to tell her to find another electrician and document the hell out of the exact work I performed there.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark

[ August 21, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: busman ]

 

[james wuebker]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Mark, You know the answer but you what someone else to say it. Leave now if you can get out of the deal.
Bye now,
Jim

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Mark , are you required to pull a permit ?

If yes , show your work to the inspector or the A.H.J. and bring a camera so you can demonstrate the work you did and the inspector inspecting it.
I would warn this person about what can happen when unqualified people preform electrical work. I would also think twice before working for her again.

 

[stud696981]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

I would move on, this person really only wants hack work at hack prices. Other wise you would have been the one doing the dryer hook up.

Due to all the other problems, she is going to want a bare bones price and not understand why all the things you just listed need to be corrected. Therefore, I would just get out now and let the local hack handle this job!

 

[cselectric]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Document exactly what you did and did not do, as well as what needed to be done and was refused by the homeowner. Preferably on the invoice so as to have the customer sign off on it. Then walk briskly away from the job without looking back. It sounds as if this property is rapidly becoming one of those "when, not if, the building burns down" liability risks.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

when I found this, but my gut reaction is to tell her to find another electrician

Therin lies the answer

 

[busman]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

All,

Now that I've cooled down a little, I realized that I forgot to mention that all the work so far has been time and materials. She has not balked at paying for any safety improvements I have recommended so I don't think this is a case of trying to save money. I think it was really a case of having already ordered the electric dryer and not really liking gas appliances.

The more I think about it, I don't think I would have had an issue if she had hired another qualified electrician to install the dryer circuit. I think the dryer circuit could have been installed from the 30 amp sub-panel without code violation (the only unknown I can think of is the Article 220-3(d) load calculation), but I was unwilling to do it because I was sure the breaker would trip frequently. If she wants to pay for a legal installation that I recommend against, I guess she should have that right. Its the hack job that bothered me. Have any of you run into similar situations?

WRT the permit question - a permit has not been required up until now because all of the work has been repair of existing installations. The new dryer circuit would definately require a permit.

Thanks for the responses.

Mark

[ August 22, 2005, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: busman ]

 

[davedottcom]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

I always make a note on the invoice that says something like...

Notes:
"Notified customer of Dangerous NEC violations in wiring installed by others. (List of violations) Customer declined to have wiring corrected at this time."

Any judge with common sense will see I made an honest attempt to avoid a tragedy. You can't force people to protect themselves.

Dave

 

[charlie b]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Originally posted by busman: . . . there is the electric dryer on a 30 amp 2-pole in the sub-panel. It is run with 10-2 WG. A violation of the neutral grounding rules.

Please write this off to my having the "Monday Morning Syndrome" (that would be "error M") , but I don't understand this issue. What's the problem, the violation? How many wires is a dryer suppose to have? Does it need a neutral? I recall something about neutrals and dryers, but I never knew what the issue is.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Um... Charlie B, are you serious?

Bare EGCs haven't been permitted to be used as grounded conductors for a few code cycles now.
Yes, Dryers and Ranges now require an insulated grounded conductor (neutral)for the 120 volt circuits within the appliances.

Dave

 

[charlie b]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

I was serious, but just not awake. OK. I didn't know that a dryer would need 120. I've moved many times, but all I have ever done is hook up the vent hose and plug it in. :roll:

 

[busman]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

I think most dryer motors are 120 volt and certainly the light (if so equipped) is 120 volt.

Mark

[ August 22, 2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: busman ]

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Charlie, I don't think a 10/2 romex was ever allowed for a dryer. A range was allowed to be fed from service entrance cable. That is how I recall how it useto be anyway.

 

[benaround]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

busman,

I don't understand why you are mad at her.She asked you first to wire it,you basicly told her no.Here you are getting T&M and not wanting it.

If the service needs an upgrade,do it! IMO you are lucky she is keeping you on the payroll.

I don't know how large or small a community you live in,but I would think twice about making to much of a fuss,word travels fast and other potential customers may not like what they hear.

 

[busman]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Frank,

I got mad at her because if there is a fire/electrocution at this house, the first thing the HO Insurance/Lawyers are going to ask is "have you had any work done recently". The answer will be "yes - let me show you the receipts". Friend-of-a-friend walks and I get the hit.

You may ask why I am not worried about all the other "old" violations in the home. The answer is that this dryer receptacle is obviously new. Orange romex has only been out a few years.

As for T&M - I would think the HO would pay attention because you are turning down work because it is not safe for them. If I didn't care - I would have just wired it up.

As for my reputation - that is safe. There is more work here than 5x the number of electricians could do, but when I cannot be honest and make a living I will change careers (on my fourth already).

Respectfully,

Mark

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Documenting everything is not a bad thing.

Why couldn't the dryer circut be taken from the top of the split-bus panel, and the other circuts be moved to the bottom? This would have settledc two issues.

I agree that it should have been run with 10/3.

A this point, I probably would finish my work and then move on.

 

[mdshunk]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Busman... It sounds like the lion's share of the things that concern you will be taken care of when you do the service upgrade. Just change out the dryer stuff to 4 wire at that time and tack that on the service upgrade bill as part of the service change. As long as she keeps paying and you're doing the service upgrade, I see no problem at this point.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

If your bills list time and material then your safe.It won't list any 10-2 or dryer receptacle.She tried to get you to wire the dryer.I think you could have found a way.Perhaps upgrade sub with 50 amp breaker and some number 6.Assuming the main service could safely handle the new load.Point out to her that code now requires a 4 wire system and insulated neutral.Perhaps you could do some work that requires a permit.Then sorta help him find that dryer

 

[busman]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Todd,

The problem with your suggestion is that only two spaces are open at the bottom of the panel and they are crowded by the neutral bar (those old panels where the neutral is run horizontal just below the CB's). Also, to make the panel legal, I would have had to move 4 single poles to the bottom section. It all could have been done, but having an entire lower section with EVERY single breaker a twin did not seem like a good idea and about 200 amps of 2 poles in the top half on 1/0 copper was nothing I was comfortable with. Especially since there was a gas dryer in that location and could have been easily replaced with the same.

I had no problem with an electric dryer run by a qualified electrician to current code. This was purely a judgement call on my part.

Live and learn. Thanks for the responses.

Mark

 

[LarryFine]

Re: What would you guys/gals do?

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by busman: . . . there is the electric dryer on a 30 amp 2-pole in the sub-panel. It is run with 10-2 WG. A violation of the neutral grounding rules.

Please write this off to my having the "Monday Morning Syndrome" (that would be "error M") , but I don't understand this issue. What's the problem, the violation? How many wires is a dryer suppose to have? Does it need a neutral? I recall something about neutrals and dryers, but I never knew what the issue is.

Charles, dryers and cooking equipment have required either an insulated neutral or the use of SE cable for many years, because there are 120v components in them: lights, motors, clocks/timers, etc.

In fact, the heating element is the only 240v part of a dryer, which is why they run fine on 208v systems, with a slightly lower heating wattage.

More recently, separating the neutral and ground has been done for new installations, which is why both 3-prong and 4-prong cordsets and receptacles are available, and you must specify with a new dryer.