What's a Kitchen?

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muhandas

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Consider an enclosed athletic arena. Around the periphery of the building are various concession stands that have commercial type popcorn makers, pretzel warmers and other similar commercial appliances. They also have sinks and receptacle outlets readily accesible near those sinks, as close as 25". Would these facilities be considered non-dwelling kitchens in the context of 210.8(B)and thus required to use GFCI protection for these receptacles, or does 210.8(B) not apply in this case and non-GFCI receptacles would be acceptable?
Would appreciate your opinions.
Heinz R.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

Heinz, I would say "IMO" 05' NEC 210.8(B)(2) Yes. GFI. A Kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for cooking and food prep.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

Article 210.8(B)(2) indicates that a commercial kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking. Under that section, every space that I have seen in the sports arenas would qualify as a kitchen area and require GFCI protection. Typically there will be commercial listed equipment in these areas further supporting a commercial kitchen classification.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

Originally posted by pierre:


How would you improve it?
Click to expand...
I say delete it all together and let the AHJ determine if it is a kitchen or not. ;)

I don't know. If I could come up with a good one, I would have submitted a proposal for it. I don't understand what "permanent facilities" means. Does this mean the cooking or food preparation appliances must be fixed in place and hard-wired? Is a microwave and a few other coutertop appliances permanent or does the area just simply have to be design and established as the area where food prepartion will take place regardless of the actual electrical equipment used.

I like "Kitchen shall mean an area used, or designated to be used, for the preparation of food."
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

I can see the arguement with the vendor now that they don't prepare the food, they simply warm it up and serve it. Too many times I have had to defend my position on a definition simply because the "offender" does not agree. I agree the definition could be clearer on the intent, but exact termonology I will have to give more thought. I am curious with the Board of Health has a good definition of what they call a "kitchen" since they typically regulate food sales and services?
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

This is how Washington State defines it in WAC 296-46B-210.8(1)(b):
Kitchens in other than dwelling units are considered to be any work surface where food and/or beverage preparation occurs and other countertops or islands.
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You will note that the word "permanent" does not appear. If you see a coffee pot on a countertop, you are looking at a kitchen.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

In commercial office spaces with a so called Pantry ( no stove just a Microwave ) and counter top with a sink.
Some of our inspectors require GFI some don't.
I Require it and install GFI. As soon as there is a sink/water I feel you should install them.
Also some office spaces we wire have private showers with a light and the code does not require GFI but we install them with GFI protection.
It just makes me sleep better at night.
To me water + electric + people = GFI

[ February 07, 2006, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: fc ]
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

Does anybody think it is a bad idea to install commercial refrigerators located in commercial kitchens on GFCI receptacles???

This is where I disagree with the Code!!!
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

Originally posted by flip:
Does anybody think it is a bad idea to install commercial refrigerators located in commercial kitchens on GFCI receptacles???
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I don't. GFCI's are one of the most proven products for life safety ever devised. Why do you think it is such a bad idea?

I hear this comment all the time and the most common complaint is that the customer loses product when the gfci trips at night or when noone notices. There are plenty of ways to circumvent this problem. Alarm systems can be installed to engage at a low temperature reading. These systems can even be connected to a dialer system that will call whomever is responsible.

There is no doubt that human life is much more important than some food products.

[ February 09, 2006, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

from Bryan

"I like "Kitchen shall mean an area used, or designated to be used, for the preparation of food." "

I am surprised that you would like this definition.


I will sometimes sit in front of the TV during a game a prepare food... does that mean I am now in the kitchen?

What about shucking corn on the porch, is that now a kitchen?


I think that the definition in the NEC is fine. Permanent provisions for cooking should not be hard to figure...
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

bph,
I agree that GFCI are great safety devices, but they are not perfect and should not be a replacement for proper wiring installations. GFCI's protect against electrocution, they do not protect against shock or the other injuries that can occur due to shock, such as falls. They also do not protect against line to grounded (neutral) conductor current leakage. The "most proven product for safety ever devised" is proper BONDING. A properly bonded refrigerator is protected against electrocution, shock, and line to neutral voltage leakage. If the refrigerator is properly bonded there is little or no additional protection achieved by installing a GFCI. That is why GFCI protection is only required on receptacles; chances are that a hard-wired appliance will be properly bonded. If the same exception was granted to commercial kitchens as is granted for refrigerators in a dwelling, I doubt that we would see a great increase in the numbers of people killed by refrigerators. GFCI is NOT a substitute for proper grounding, it is at most a second best means of protection. With proper bonding GFCI is not really necessary. I am not advocating that GFCI be eliminated, as it provides some protection to users of devices that are not properly bonded, but only some.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

I sort-of agree, and sort-of don't. RCD's have been proven over and over in other countires such as Germany and South Africa which have the most tenchincal and sophisticated electrical systems in the world.

If grounding worked as the NEC says it will, TVSS's and Surge arrestors wouldn't be needed.

If bonding worked as it should, gfci's and lcdi's wouldn't be needed.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

Grounding has nothing to do with TVSS's and Surge arrestors. These devices provide a path for electrical surges to be shunted to the grounded (neutral) conductors. Let's not even get into the problems that are caused by using the nutral as a grounding conductor in US electrical systems. Mike can go on for hours about this.
Proper bonding does eliminate the need for GFCI, but as long as we have appliances, lamps, etc, that use only two wires, and as long as consumers continue to cut the ground pin out of cord caps, GFCI will provide some level of protection.
I have to admit that I don't know what a RCD is. Sounds interesting.
 
Re: What's a Kitchen?

So how would you handle coffee stations containing a undercounter Ref. a dishwasher and a wall mount microwave?

J.Lockard
 
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