What's considered "convenience receptacle"?

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cppoly

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What does the NEC consider as a convenience receptacle? If there isn't a specific appliance, then this is a convenience receptacle?

Is a TV connected to a receptacle considered a convenience receptacle with 180 VA?
Is a computer connected to a receptacle considered a convenience receptacle with 180 VA?

Convenience receptacles are 180 VA per duplex receptacle and also allows for a demand factor. So if the receptacle is not considered "convenience" then really no demand factor can be applied? (except as noted for specific demand factors (kitchen appliances, hospital lighting, etc.)
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

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cppoly said:
What does the NEC consider as a convenience receptacle? If there isn't a specific appliance, then this is a convenience receptacle?

Is a TV connected to a receptacle considered a convenience receptacle with 180 VA?
Is a computer connected to a receptacle considered a convenience receptacle with 180 VA?

Convenience receptacles are 180 VA per duplex receptacle and also allows for a demand factor. So if the receptacle is not considered "convenience" then really no demand factor can be applied? (except as noted for specific demand factors (kitchen appliances, hospital lighting, etc.)
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In a residential pretty much everything is a convenience receptacle. That's why you figure the house at 300 watts a square foot. The 180 VA is mostly used in commercial.
 
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Strathead

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cppoly said:
In commercial buildings, how do you distinguish what gets 180 VA and what gets an actual load?
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Realistically, this 180va has two significances. One is its relation to the service (feeder calculations) and one is to the branch circuit calculations.

Regarding branch circuiting, if you know that the loads intended to plug in to one circuit are going to overload that circuit, then you are negligent if you don't provide additional circuits, or document it to the designer. The code is clear that the load shall not exceed the circuit.

For purposes of feeder calculation, I personally only worry about significant loads. My definition of that is one that requires a dedicated circuit, or a kitchen load. Otherwise, I count all the recepts and multiply by 180va. If I put 3 receps on walls in an office, they will probably plug in about 300w of computer, 60w of tack lighting, and 10w of battery chargers. Along with the 2 second burst of 200w pencil sharpener. that is less than the 440w at 180 x 3
 
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cppoly

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raider1 said:
The designer will determine that.

Chris
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Yea. Well I'm asking, if there's quads/duplexes scattered throughout a floor plan (placed by an architect), how does a designer know what's considered convenience receptacles by looking at the plan?

Is the only distinction when a specific appliance is shown for the receptacle?
 
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Strathead

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cppoly said:
Yea. Well I'm asking, if there's quads/duplexes scattered throughout a floor plan (placed by an architect), how does a designer know what's considered convenience receptacles by looking at the plan?

Is the only distinction when a specific appliance is shown for the receptacle?
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I am pretty sure that raider meant that the Architect, or at least his subcontractor the Electrical Enigineer is the DESIGNER. They sit down with owners and ask questions they have developed over the years to get a good concept of the owner's requirements, then they usually add in a safety factor and err on the side of caution. I, for example will generally put 8-10 receptacles maximum on a 20 amp circuit when I am doing a Master Electrician allowed design build. If someone else low balls me, then I chalk it up to experience, or appeal to the GC about our record and expertise.
 
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cppoly

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Strathead said:
I am pretty sure that raider meant that the Architect, or at least his subcontractor the Electrical Enigineer is the DESIGNER. They sit down with owners and ask questions they have developed over the years to get a good concept of the owner's requirements, then they usually add in a safety factor and err on the side of caution. I, for example will generally put 8-10 receptacles maximum on a 20 amp circuit when I am doing a Master Electrician allowed design build. If someone else low balls me, then I chalk it up to experience, or appeal to the GC about our record and expertise.
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Yea, but the electrical engineer doesn't place the receptacles (at least in my case). The architect places receptacles and the electrical engineer circuits them. So how do I know just by looking at a power plan, which receptacles are considered convenience? The appliance receptacles are listed as per the architect's plans (microwave, dishwasher, etc.) so these are obvious. But what about everything else?

I'm having difficulty, because NEC doesn't provide a definition of convenience receptacle.
 
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Smart $

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cppoly said:
Yea. Well I'm asking, if there's quads/duplexes scattered throughout a floor plan (placed by an architect), how does a designer know what's considered convenience receptacles by looking at the plan?

Is the only distinction when a specific appliance is shown for the receptacle?
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IMO, the NEC doesn't make a clear-cut distinction.

IMO, convenience receptacles (CR's) are not necessarily NEC general purpose receptacles (GPR's), though many do not make the differentiation. GPR's are CR's placed for occasional use but have no intended loads. However, CR's also include receptacles located for specific loads. For example, you know a hallway will need receptacles for the convenience of plugging in maintenance equipment (vacuum sweepers, floor polishers, etc.). Let's say you have a short carpeted hallway where a vacuum sweeper cord allows reaching the entire area. You place one maybe two receptacles in the hallway. Are you going to calculate each at 180VA??? Are you going to put them on the same circuit as 15 :)angel:) other receptacles in office cubicles???
 
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Strathead

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cppoly said:
Yea, but the electrical engineer doesn't place the receptacles (at least in my case). The architect places receptacles and the electrical engineer circuits them. So how do I know just by looking at a power plan, which receptacles are considered convenience? The appliance receptacles are listed as per the architect's plans (microwave, dishwasher, etc.) so these are obvious. But what about everything else?

I'm having difficulty, because NEC doesn't provide a definition of convenience receptacle.
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It surely goes both ways, many of the EE's I know get directly involved with the owner. There are often very specific loads, like medical equipment for example that the Architect isn't going to be involved in. Otherwise, I suggest you use the basic outline I suggested above. Use 180 VA for calculating feeders, limit the number of recepts to 8-10, possibly even less in offices, and I suggest you develop a short questionaire that you require the Architect to either complete or get completed, with easy questions, like, are there specific peices of equipment, (copiers, printers, freezers etc.) that you are aware of? And, then of course a disclaimer that you are not providing specific power not desgnated on the drawings or questionaire.
 
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construct

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I may incorrect in my understanding here, but, I always considered the required receptacles in Residential to be the only ones considered as "convenience", otherwise wouldn't commercial have the same spacing requirements?
 
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cppoly

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Strathead said:
It surely goes both ways, many of the EE's I know get directly involved with the owner. There are often very specific loads, like medical equipment for example that the Architect isn't going to be involved in. Otherwise, I suggest you use the basic outline I suggested above. Use 180 VA for calculating feeders, limit the number of recepts to 8-10, possibly even less in offices, and I suggest you develop a short questionaire that you require the Architect to either complete or get completed, with easy questions, like, are there specific peices of equipment, (copiers, printers, freezers etc.) that you are aware of? And, then of course a disclaimer that you are not providing specific power not desgnated on the drawings or questionaire.
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That would be ideal. Unfortunately, they don't always know what every receptacle is for. And, it would be time consuming to request that of lets say 600 receptacles. I was just looking for a way to do it myself based off of the NEC's definition of convenience receptacle. But, there doesn't seem to be one.
 
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PEDRO ESCOVILLA

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south texas
300 watts per square foot? i hate to be picky, but it's 3.table 220.12. and i've always worked on 9 to 10 outlets max on a 20 amp circuit in a dwelling. commercial usually less unless spec'd differently by the design engineer.
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

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PEDRO ESCOVILLA said:
300 watts per square foot? i hate to be picky, but it's 3.table 220.12. and i've always worked on 9 to 10 outlets max on a 20 amp circuit in a dwelling. commercial usually less unless spec'd differently by the design engineer.
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Now Pedro, I complimented you earlier, don't make me take it back. Show me in the code where it says how many receptacles can be on a residential circuit. I guarantee that the admins will lock this discussion before it goes to far.
 
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cowboyjwc

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Now back to the original question, you don't really know. You could put in receptacles being told that there are just a couple of desks going there and then they come and plug in a big copy machine in one of them and poof. Let others worry about what's being plugged into it. If you do a beauty salon and they want to put 5 outlets on one circuit why should you care? When they call you because the 5 2000 watt hair dryers they plugged in are tripping the breaker, then you can charge them to rewire it. :happyyes:
 
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