What's new in consumer LED lamp industry? Warranty slashing

[Electric-Light]

It's now common to see traditional CFLs in the clearance bin at retailers. Having claimed some traction in the consumer lamp market, the consumer compact solid state fluorescent lamp industry which produces and conveys "LED light bulbs" are grounding their warranty blimps and they now just sit on the ground just high enough only offering legal minimum required to retain their Energy Star Certification after they've built an image as lamps that fade rather than fail to penetrate the market. When the big manufacturers are putting CYA that essentially excludes commercial use and put an operating hour limit that's as little as 15% of supposed theoretical possible lamp life, it makes you wonder.

While they still relentlessly pitch how LEDs simply become ineffective by losing efficacy by 30% instead of burning out like fluorescent, the trend towards slashing warranty suggests they're fearing high cost of warranty claims and apparently lacks confidence in what they sing. The warranty language is troublesome as it says warranty will cover lamps that no longer "operate" but not advising consumer rights for dud lamps depreciating below 70% or DUV shifting beyond permitted by Energy Star.

The true price continues to be quite expensive costing $7-10 a piece without subsidy. They're for some reason shy about the rated life and you have to look all over the package to find the hour rating. The package reads xx years provided up to xx hours of use per day, so I interpret the warranty as xx years or xx hours of run time, whichever comes first.

LED Solid state fluorescent lamp timeline:

Philips:

Before
November 2011:
BC8A19/AMB/2700K DIM. AmbientLED (Remote phosphor. Apparently based on Cree's remotely mounted phosphor solid state fluorescent technology)

8W, 470 LM 25,000 hours.
"22.8yrs based on engineering testing and probability analysis at 3hrs/day"
6 year/6,570 hour warranty.

After
Philips Feb 2015:
7W 450 LM SlimStyle 25,000 hours.
"22.8yrs based on engineering testing and probability analysis at 3hrs/day"
3 year/3,285 hour warranty.

Cree
Before:
2013
"Warm White LED 60w"
800 LM 9.5W
10 yr/21,900 hr consumer use only. Warranty conditional to receipt registration.
Fragile. GLASS. Like SSFL version of COVRGRD

After:
2015
4 FLOW 815 LM 11W (now with lower efficacy than before)
3 year/6,570 hrs
"Limited Warranty: If this bulb does not operate for 3 years (based on 6 hours per day / 7 days per week of normal consumer use) from date of purchase when used as directed, return the bulb with proof of purchase, register receipt and your name and address to Cree, Inc."
Philips only allows is 3 yr/3285 hr warranty.

GE
900 LM 10.5W, 5000K 80 CRI, 15,000 hr rated life
89943
"Manufactured for GE Lighting", Made in China.
5yr/5,500 hr warranty.
Dimmable, but objectionable audible buzzing

Retail price $9-12

 

[tom baker]

Whats your point?
Are you for or against LED?

 

[gadfly56]

Whats your point?
Are you for or against LED?

His point is that the bloom is fast fading off the LED rose. We saw exactly the same backpedaling on CFL's. When I first purchased 100w equivalent CFL's, their touted life was 21,000 hours or about 7 years at 8hrs/day. The last time I checked, maybe a couple months ago, that was down to 4,000 hours. The long-life incandescent bulbs were also 4,000 hours, and one third the price. Guess which one went into the cart? It's getting to, or already at the point, where your energy savings is not going to offset the high first cost.

 

[Electric-Light]

Whats your point?
Are you for or against LED?

I am just pointing out a major change the LED lamp industry in general is making, but only shown in fine prints. Fluorescent lamp ballasts that allow use with 90C case temp is often only warranted for 3 years at 90C but for 5 years at 70C/160F. There's usually a small circle or a circle with "tc" written in it on the ballast label somewhere so that in-situ temperature is easily checked for warranty purpose.

Warranty works very much like insurance when the company intends to stick around for a long time. So it can be inferred from the above that when case temperature is 90C/200F such as in a high bay, the probability of failure starts to increase at the 3 year mark. You need to regularly study the warranty so you don't pass down the wrong information or pitch "maintenance savings"

Soraa's commercial LED warranty coverage is also rather shy and it's just anther indication that LEDs may not be durable as originally thought and the company probably determined them to have fairly high warranty risk when they have to PRORATE the warranty coverage based on hours of use. http://www.soraa.com/public/docs/soraa-warranty.pdf

The above is relevant, because LEDs have an electronic ballast in the base(despite being called a driver, it's the same thing). Many LED lamps run with case temperature of 90-100C even if they're used as intended. LEDs were marketed as the "super bulb" promising to last many times more than CFLs. When you see them shying away from conspicuously showing the hours of life, they all read "lasts 22.8 years" (3h/day everyday to 25,000 hours) but the warranty says 3 years and it is further restricted to 3 years or 3,300 hours of run-time, its likely an indication that probability of failure goes up rapidly at the 3,300 hour mark and enough that they don't feel comfortable from risk point of view to offer longer warranties.

With running the LEDs hard and the LED ballast running hot, the warranty reduction is a strong indicator that LED bulbs are not as durable as they're wanting people to believe. If you can get a large quantity of LED A19 or BR30 bulbs that burns as a big set and can rack up 5,000 hrs a year in a commercial building and replace the failed lamps with CFLs as you go (so you can keep track of original LEDs still working), I suspect you'll be down to half the installed quantity (B50) far before you reach the 25,000 hour claim.

 

[tom baker]

Right - how many consumers know how long the table lamp is on? Or for that matter, when they purchased the lamp....

 

[Electric-Light]

Right - how many consumers know how long the table lamp is on? Or for that matter, when they purchased the lamp....

Why do you think they'd make the warranty more restrictive? I'd think it's because they lack confidence in reliability of LEDs and they fear mass warranty claims from restaurant operators and such, because their :lol: LED can't tolerate 16hr/day operation for 3 years even though you need to run it 22.8 hrs/day to hit 25,000 hour within 3 years.

LED sales say LEDs don't fail, they dim. and not more than 30% in rated life. The revised more restrictive warranty says otherwise about their durability.

 

[gadfly56]

Right - how many consumers know how long the table lamp is on? Or for that matter, when they purchased the lamp....

I inscribe the base with the install date in permanent marker. That's how I know I was getting 1-2 years out of my "seven year" CFL's.

 

[iwire]

That's how I know I was getting 1-2 years out of my "seven year" CFL's.

Oh wait a minute, you did not just point out that lighting manufacturers have been exaggerating about their products before LEDs were even a consideration?

That is not allowed in ELs threads.

 

[gadfly56]

Oh wait a minute, you did not just point out that lighting manufacturers have been exaggerating about their products before LEDs were even a consideration?

That is not allowed in ELs threads.

I did that back at post #3. You're a day late and a dollar short.

 

[iwire]

I did that back at post #3. You're a day late and a dollar short.

:lol:

 

[Electric-Light]

I inscribe the base with the install date in permanent marker. That's how I know I was getting 1-2 years out of my "seven year" CFL's.

Oh wait a minute, you did not just point out that lighting manufacturers have been exaggerating about their products before LEDs were even a consideration?

That is not allowed in ELs threads.

So, they already learned from CFLs that heat kills electronic ballast in the base, therefore, it's pretty obvious that changing the lamp element to solid state fluorescent wouldn't make much of a difference there.

 

[peter d]

I'm starting to believe that LED's are almost as big of a scam as AFCI's.

 

[Electric-Light]

I'm starting to believe that LED's are almost as big of a scam as AFCI's.

pretty much