websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Here is the scenerio:
Thanks,
Please advise and include any code references.
Thanks,
What's your call?
- Thread starter websparky
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: What's your call?
Is it all one property and under single management?
Is it all one property and under single management?
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: What's your call?
The property is leased to the businesses.
Each business has it's own gas, electric, and water service along with it's own address.
There is no "public" sevice or panel.
The property is leased to the businesses.
Each business has it's own gas, electric, and water service along with it's own address.
There is no "public" sevice or panel.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: What's your call?
I do not know of any code section to prevent them doing what they propose.
They are going to have some current flowing on the EGCs I imagine.
I do not know of any code section to prevent them doing what they propose.
They are going to have some current flowing on the EGCs I imagine.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: What's your call?
This reminds me of a 3 unit apartment I did many years ago. It was a converted house and all three units back door led out into a common area before going outside. The landlord didn't want the cost of installing a house panel or installing three separate fixtures. So I installed a three lamp fixture and each lamp was switched inside of the back door of each unit, and the neutrals were kept separate. Yes I know this was a violation because the fixture could have power on by one of the switch's when someone lamped it but I did mark inside which lamp went to which unit. And everyone was happy even the AHJ.
[ August 31, 2004, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
This reminds me of a 3 unit apartment I did many years ago. It was a converted house and all three units back door led out into a common area before going outside. The landlord didn't want the cost of installing a house panel or installing three separate fixtures. So I installed a three lamp fixture and each lamp was switched inside of the back door of each unit, and the neutrals were kept separate. Yes I know this was a violation because the fixture could have power on by one of the switch's when someone lamped it but I did mark inside which lamp went to which unit. And everyone was happy even the AHJ.
[ August 31, 2004, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: What's your call?
Wayne that is a common method around here for two and three unit apartment buildings.
I was never was under the impression it was a violation.
Wayne that is a common method around here for two and three unit apartment buildings.
I was never was under the impression it was a violation.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: What's your call?
Dave
Are the bank and the restuarant in the same buidling, sharing a grounding electrode system, or are they in two different buildings?
Bob brings up an interesting point about the EGs possibly having a potential of difference between them.
Pierre
Dave
Are the bank and the restuarant in the same buidling, sharing a grounding electrode system, or are they in two different buildings?
Bob brings up an interesting point about the EGs possibly having a potential of difference between them.
Pierre
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: What's your call?
Hi Pierre,
Nope.........everything is separate.
Hi Pierre,
Nope.........everything is separate.
Re: What's your call?
This is my question of your subject: The bank calls me to repair "their" two HID fixtures. I show up, go into the bank and shut off the breaker that controls "their" two fixtures. I then go out to my lift truck, accend to the top of the pole and begin to work. I Know that power to the pole is off because I just turned it off. As I begin to work, for some reason the other two fixtures turn on.
I think that if this type of installation is allowed, then some kind of permanent marking must be present and highly visible.
I think that because of the possibility that the pole may be unknowingly energized while work is being performed then it is not allowed. I don't know of any articles to back me up but it just doesn't seem right to me. Also as I think about it, You will have two separate power sources to the SAME pole from two separate panels...from two separate buildings...What if one building is closed/locked when you want to service the pole? No way to turn off the pole completely. No I would not do the installation in this manner.
This is my question of your subject: The bank calls me to repair "their" two HID fixtures. I show up, go into the bank and shut off the breaker that controls "their" two fixtures. I then go out to my lift truck, accend to the top of the pole and begin to work. I Know that power to the pole is off because I just turned it off. As I begin to work, for some reason the other two fixtures turn on.
I think that if this type of installation is allowed, then some kind of permanent marking must be present and highly visible.
I think that because of the possibility that the pole may be unknowingly energized while work is being performed then it is not allowed. I don't know of any articles to back me up but it just doesn't seem right to me. Also as I think about it, You will have two separate power sources to the SAME pole from two separate panels...from two separate buildings...What if one building is closed/locked when you want to service the pole? No way to turn off the pole completely. No I would not do the installation in this manner.
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: What's your call?
I would open the little hand hole at the bottom of the pole. Seeing the bundle of conductors at the base would be a dead give away. As does the white wire that is attached to a single pole switch that is not re-labeled. If under single management, I see no problem with this.
I would open the little hand hole at the bottom of the pole. Seeing the bundle of conductors at the base would be a dead give away. As does the white wire that is attached to a single pole switch that is not re-labeled. If under single management, I see no problem with this.
Re: What's your call?
I agree with Torint. If the bank calls you to repair their light, the restraunt may not let you in to shut off their breaker. I would want disconnects for each branch circuit at the light pole.
I think a lockable disconnect (or a disconnect within sight) is a code requirement for a light pole. Not two disconnects in separate locations.
I would normally worry about what happens if one parcel is sold. (Say the restraunt is sold, and the new owner remodels and wants to demo the pole.) But if they are both leased by one person or company, that should be something that can be dealt with when and if a sale happens.
Steve
I agree with Torint. If the bank calls you to repair their light, the restraunt may not let you in to shut off their breaker. I would want disconnects for each branch circuit at the light pole.
I think a lockable disconnect (or a disconnect within sight) is a code requirement for a light pole. Not two disconnects in separate locations.
I would normally worry about what happens if one parcel is sold. (Say the restraunt is sold, and the new owner remodels and wants to demo the pole.) But if they are both leased by one person or company, that should be something that can be dealt with when and if a sale happens.
Steve
Re: What's your call?
Not a code violation.....However,
NOT THE BEST IDEA EITHER. Might want to consider the following so that you can sleep better.
Perminantly marking the pole.
Seperately identified neuterals.
Different phase coloring.
Tag the conductors inside the hand hole.
and
Tag the conductors at the top of the pole.
Not a code violation.....However,
NOT THE BEST IDEA EITHER. Might want to consider the following so that you can sleep better.
Perminantly marking the pole.
Seperately identified neuterals.
Different phase coloring.
Tag the conductors inside the hand hole.
and
Tag the conductors at the top of the pole.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: What's your call?
I discussed this with another electrical PE in my office. We agree that the most realistic hazard is the one that Torint has mentioned. However, I found another possible, though far less likely, hazard, and my office mate agreed with the nature of the hazard. Suppose there is a ?high impedance fault? on one light. By that I mean a leakage path from hot to the case of the light fixture (and from there to the equipment grounding conductor), but one that has enough resistance to limit the fault current below the trip point of the supply breaker. This situation could continue indefinitely. The problem is that the fault will impress a voltage upon the EGC of the other building. So anyone touching a grounded metal surface is susceptible to receiving a shock. I don?t think the shock could be enough to cause an injury, without also there being enough current to trip the breaker. But I conclude that it is bad design, in that it has the possibility of creating an undetectable hazard.
My solution would be a contract between the two businesses to share the cost of powering that light pole.
I discussed this with another electrical PE in my office. We agree that the most realistic hazard is the one that Torint has mentioned. However, I found another possible, though far less likely, hazard, and my office mate agreed with the nature of the hazard. Suppose there is a ?high impedance fault? on one light. By that I mean a leakage path from hot to the case of the light fixture (and from there to the equipment grounding conductor), but one that has enough resistance to limit the fault current below the trip point of the supply breaker. This situation could continue indefinitely. The problem is that the fault will impress a voltage upon the EGC of the other building. So anyone touching a grounded metal surface is susceptible to receiving a shock. I don?t think the shock could be enough to cause an injury, without also there being enough current to trip the breaker. But I conclude that it is bad design, in that it has the possibility of creating an undetectable hazard.
My solution would be a contract between the two businesses to share the cost of powering that light pole.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: What's your call?
Even if the pole is a ?structure,? you have a total of three items (one structure and two buildings), and two different property managers. So 225.30 would not apply.
Even if the pole is a ?structure,? you have a total of three items (one structure and two buildings), and two different property managers. So 225.30 would not apply.
Re: What's your call?
Does'nt 225.30 when refering to the load side of the disconnecting means partain to (1) service only? this is (2) seperate services.
by what you all are saying what would keep me from getting power for my microwave oven in my kitchen from my neighbors panel?
something about this just doesn't seem right.
Does'nt 225.30 when refering to the load side of the disconnecting means partain to (1) service only? this is (2) seperate services.
by what you all are saying what would keep me from getting power for my microwave oven in my kitchen from my neighbors panel?
something about this just doesn't seem right.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: What's your call?
I only posted 225.30 as an example that one structure can be supplied by two feeds.
There is nothing in the NEC prohibiting one structure to be fed from two services from two other structures.
Charlie B I do not understand how we are going to raise the voltage through a high impedance fault.
Not that I am disagreeing I just do not understand what you mean can you explain it in a different way?
How is this situation different than a pole fed from one service?
I only posted 225.30 as an example that one structure can be supplied by two feeds.
There is nothing in the NEC prohibiting one structure to be fed from two services from two other structures.
Charlie B I do not understand how we are going to raise the voltage through a high impedance fault.
Not that I am disagreeing I just do not understand what you mean can you explain it in a different way?
How is this situation different than a pole fed from one service?
Re: What's your call?
for (1) I dont see how looking at the bundle of wires in the handhole would be a dead giveaway?
One would assume that they were there for different switching to the fixture heads but would never believe they werent coming from the same building. Whats to keep someone from swapping the leads of (2) of the fixtures over to the other power supply and have (1) building turn on all (4) fixtures after the fact? NOTHING. for that matter what would keep the electrician from tying the (2) different power feeds together if they were the same color? NOTHING it is possible that you could send power to the loadside of the breaker in the bank from the load side of the breaker in the restaraunt.I would not do this type of install wether code complian or not.
for (1) I dont see how looking at the bundle of wires in the handhole would be a dead giveaway?
One would assume that they were there for different switching to the fixture heads but would never believe they werent coming from the same building. Whats to keep someone from swapping the leads of (2) of the fixtures over to the other power supply and have (1) building turn on all (4) fixtures after the fact? NOTHING. for that matter what would keep the electrician from tying the (2) different power feeds together if they were the same color? NOTHING it is possible that you could send power to the loadside of the breaker in the bank from the load side of the breaker in the restaraunt.I would not do this type of install wether code complian or not.
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: What's your call?
210.25 does that
So if I am reading you correctly charlie b. Since 225.30 doesn't apply at the pole because it is under "double management", It can not have two feeds?
- Status