When did qo breakers get white lettering for the amp rating?

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electrofelon

electrofelon

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Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
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Electrician
I am trying to date a panel. It's a qo with horizontal main breaker, not vertical which means it is somewhat new, but many of the breakers don't have the white numbers on the handle for the amp rating. Any guesses?
 
electrofelon said:
I am trying to date a panel. It's a qo with horizontal main breaker, not vertical which means it is somewhat new, but many of the breakers don't have the white numbers on the handle for the amp rating. Any guesses?
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I believe the Square D QO breakers got white lettering in the early 2000's. The horizontal 200A main breakers were introduced about 1985.
 
Do they have yellow Square D logo on the "face"?

And more confusing to some, a white 10kA printed on the face also? Can't tell you how many times a client told me they have a 10 amp breaker because that 10kA was the most visible thing to them.

I have to agree that white lettering for amp rating started sometime near 2000 but not sure exactly when.

There probably is a date code on them, but I don't know how to decipher them, nor is it always obvious a code is actually a date code.

You also can have updated panel but old breakers re-installed sometimes.
 
An update: I looked at the breakers and figured out how to read the date code. They were 1992. Found a date in the meter socket and that was 1991. The reason I am investigating is the job got red tagged for "bringing circuits in to Un permitted panel." I am appealing that call as I think it is total BS to hit me with something that was done 26 years ago. Also i question whether they can even accurately determine the permit status of something that long ago. Unless they changed that meter socket hot, since the utility would be involved im thinking it had an inspection. Oh and it was so nice of them to call me on that at final instead of cover. Seattle DCI has really been a bunch of jerks lately :rant:
 
electrofelon said:
An update: I looked at the breakers and figured out how to read the date code. They were 1992. Found a date in the meter socket and that was 1991. The reason I am investigating is the job got red tagged for "bringing circuits in to Un permitted panel." I am appealing that call as I think it is total BS to hit me with something that was done 26 years ago. Also i question whether they can even accurately determine the permit status of something that long ago. Unless they changed that meter socket hot, since the utility would be involved im thinking it had an inspection. Oh and it was so nice of them to call me on that at final instead of cover. Seattle DCI has really been a bunch of jerks lately :rant:
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I agree it is not fair to hit you with something you didn't do and something that old on top of it.

Maybe a little understandable if something is obviously wrong with what was existing though, like using the neutral for equipment grounding where it wasn't allowed at the time or undersized conductors for the overcurrent device on the feeder/service.
 
isn't Seattle one of the places where they require that every bedroom be both AFCI and GFCI and that the lights go off when their tester blows the outlet circuit? Think I saw a video of that on youtube...

Inspector checked every outlet in room to make sure all had no power when the gfci outlet was tripped...
 
Adamjamma said:
isn't Seattle one of the places where they require that every bedroom be both AFCI and GFCI and that the lights go off when their tester blows the outlet circuit? Think I saw a video of that on youtube...

Inspector checked every outlet in room to make sure all had no power when the gfci outlet was tripped...
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Can't speak for any locality, but NEC doesn't care if additional items are protected that don't otherwise require such protection. Doing so is a design issue.

When you get into life safety related codes - egress lighting can't be on with general purpose circuits period. Lights in a dwelling bedroom are not typically one of those applications.
 
Adamjamma said:
isn't Seattle one of the places where they require that every bedroom be both AFCI and GFCI and that the lights go off when their tester blows the outlet circuit? Think I saw a video of that on youtube...

Inspector checked every outlet in room to make sure all had no power when the gfci outlet was tripped...
Click to expand...

No such rule. Metallic Recessed trims in shower spaces need to be gfci protected but that's it.
 
I hope it does not happen but it probably will happen there too... here in UK we are now required RCD on all circuits pretty much in a home, including lights, because a person could get electrocuted while changing a light bulb... lol...

Rate the licensing boards are going on things, we will see a requirement to be a licensed electrician to change a light bulb here...
 
Adamjamma said:
I hope it does not happen but it probably will happen there too... here in UK we are now required RCD on all circuits pretty much in a home, including lights, because a person could get electrocuted while changing a light bulb... lol...

Rate the licensing boards are going on things, we will see a requirement to be a licensed electrician to change a light bulb here...
Click to expand...

I'd take gfci over afci anyday.....
 
Adamjamma said:
Rate the licensing boards are going on things, we will see a requirement to be a licensed electrician to change a light bulb here...
Click to expand...

Changing bulbs isn't as simple of a task as it once used to be.

Drives me nuts to go into a place with an incandescant here or there, and 5 different color temp LED's or fluorescent lamps all in the same area.
 
More I am reading on AFCI the less it makes sense to me. Plus, starting to wonder if the idea of a cross between USA and UK rules on GFCI would be better... but manufacturers and boards would need to be slightly changed to accomplish it...
UK is using one RCD to cover several circuits, each on their own breaker. According to the brochures I am reading on AFCI, the approach here is to add the AFCI to the gFCI... so it covers several breakers, in a ‘split panel’ approach.
Now, so far I have not seen the number of breakers on an RCD defined, but probably just because I missed it somewhere. But, unless the USA switched to this style of system, then to do it would require specially built panels..which is probably never going to happen.

But, if we took the tripping values for the RCD systems, in which the US uses a stricter number, and varied it.. use the higher number in the panel box to cover more circuits, then 8n areas we need more cover, Mainly kitchens and bathrooms, use the outlets at the lower number to increase the protection.
Now, I know this is probably stupid to consider, but, still, it makes sense to me. Perhaps an AFCI system could be put in that works with the surge protector or such.
of course, the drawbacks to my system is the number of circuits to check when a panel RCD or afci pops is more. But it also means less of the specialist breakers.
 
Adamjamma said:
More I am reading on AFCI the less it makes sense to me. Plus, starting to wonder if the idea of a cross between USA and UK rules on GFCI would be better... but manufacturers and boards would need to be slightly changed to accomplish it...
UK is using one RCD to cover several circuits, each on their own breaker. According to the brochures I am reading on AFCI, the approach here is to add the AFCI to the gFCI... so it covers several breakers, in a ‘split panel’ approach.
Now, so far I have not seen the number of breakers on an RCD defined, but probably just because I missed it somewhere. But, unless the USA switched to this style of system, then to do it would require specially built panels..which is probably never going to happen.

But, if we took the tripping values for the RCD systems, in which the US uses a stricter number, and varied it.. use the higher number in the panel box to cover more circuits, then 8n areas we need more cover, Mainly kitchens and bathrooms, use the outlets at the lower number to increase the protection.
Now, I know this is probably stupid to consider, but, still, it makes sense to me. Perhaps an AFCI system could be put in that works with the surge protector or such.
of course, the drawbacks to my system is the number of circuits to check when a panel RCD or afci pops is more. But it also means less of the specialist breakers.
Click to expand...
AFCI technology is guarded more than national security issues, most of us don't know what drives them, at least not all of what drives them.

GFCI technology has simple basics to it, differential in current in monitored conductors trips the device when it reaches a certain threshold - which for class A GFCI is 4-6 mA. Problem with that low of a threshold is the more circuit you are trying to protect the more likely capacitive leakage will cause unintended trips, so we need to limit how much circuit is protected at that trip level.

Reason for the low trip level is class A GFCI is intended to protect people from shock hazards.

Ground fault protection of equipment uses higher threshold and capacitive effects are not so much of an issue for those applications.
 
here I think it is 30ma for the RCDs that cover a few breakers, but you have some cords for outdoor use that have the smaller value RCDs in them.. Have yet to see outlets with RCDs in them but sure it will come.
Of course, most homes here are wired with ring circuits rather than radials for their outlets. Kinda like them but understand why we dont use them in the USA as they are quiite tricky, and can easily overload inn some cases.

But, it might also take too long for some of my fellow yanks to understand how to put fuses into plugs..lol
 
Adamjamma said:
here I think it is 30ma for the RCDs that cover a few breakers, but you have some cords for outdoor use that have the smaller value RCDs in them.. Have yet to see outlets with RCDs in them but sure it will come.
Of course, most homes here are wired with ring circuits rather than radials for their outlets. Kinda like them but understand why we dont use them in the USA as they are quiite tricky, and can easily overload inn some cases.

But, it might also take too long for some of my fellow yanks to understand how to put fuses into plugs..lol
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First thing to come to mind with many would be finding a way to bypass said fuse. You don't want to know how many times I get asked if we need to have "those outlets (when talking about frequent tripping GFCI's)" either.
 
Warehouse and commercial places here placing aluminum jumpers instead of fuses has led to something here called PAT testing... insurance companies make commercial places, including Apartments, test many types of equipment to certify it is usable and safe... and inspecting the fuse to make sure it is the right one is part of the test..lol..
 
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