When is a bedroom not a bedroom anymore?

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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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Retired Electrical Contractor
Okay, lets try this one. You enter a door from the living room into the master suite hallway (10' long, 3' wide). To the left is a bathroom with a door. The right side has a door to a walk in closet. You continue down the hall into the master bedroom proper (no door). Can you guess the question??? Is the 3? wide hallway that leads up to the bedroom considered part of the bedroom thus needing outlets according to 210.52 (A) instead of 210.52 (H)?
What about the smoke detectors. I know that smoke detectors are not in the nec but they are in our NC State building code. I read it but it doesn?t seem to indicate that one has to be placed outside the suite. I would think that the bedroom is the sleeping area and the hall is just that (3? wide-can?t be a bedroom???). Nowhere that I know of does a door enter into the equation. I would think a smoke detector would be best placed inside the bedroom (sleeping area) and outside the suite (not in the 3? wide hall leading to it).
Any help here?I had a sketch I drew but can?t figure out how to place an image on the site. It asks for an URL site but it is on my hard drive.
 
There's no reason you can't include the area on the bedroom circuit, so when in doubt, I always just include it in the bedroom circuit.

The only one with the answer is the AHJ, it's an interpretation call, IMO.
 
georgestolz said:
There's no reason you can't include the area on the bedroom circuit, so when in doubt, I always just include it in the bedroom circuit.

The only one with the answer is the AHJ, it's an interpretation call, IMO.
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I did that but do I need outlets installed as if it were a bedroom. HO hates looking at them. I have to fight her on every location. I wanted to add 3 extra outlets but she did not want them. We'll see what the inspector wants.
 
when is a bedroom not a bedroom?

when is a bedroom not a bedroom?

No offense to the poster ... but this "bedroom" issue is getting tedious. I blame the code panel that accepted the AFCI code, thus getting the code tied up in design issues.

For the most part, I consider a room to be defined by doors. Oh, I can imagine other situations ... the maze-type entries to some public restrooms come to mind ... but walls and doors are usually good guideposts.

Various building codes address the placement of smoke detectors, and usually also take ceiling shape as one of the factors in placement.

I'm no convinced that a 3' wide space can be both closet and hallway; a simple clothes rod needs at least 22", and often is made so it uses 28" of space. Indeed, using any closet as a required exit (and many bedrooms are large enough to require two exits) seems to be a basic building code violation of its' own.
 
renosteinke said:
I'm no convinced that a 3' wide space can be both closet and hallway; a simple clothes rod needs at least 22", and often is made so it uses 28" of space. Indeed, using any closet as a required exit (and many bedrooms are large enough to require two exits) seems to be a basic building code violation of its' own.
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I never said the hallway was a closet. I said to the right was a door to the closet.

added-- no offense taken
 
NFPA 72 covers FA. However, I believe 110.3 (B) Manufacturer's instructions do cover some of the answer in an offhand way. Smoke detectors cover a total square area (700 square ft. sticks in my head for some reason). Other than that, I go one per bedroom, CO/Smoke detector in the master(something like 2' x 2' inside above the main entry to the room), one per floor, and avoid having smokey within 20' of the kitchen and bathrooms. If there is a hallway to the sleeping area, a smokey to the entry to it.

If the AHJ doesn't like it, and was per print, it's a billable item. If you are doing layout, through in the extra, it's cheaper than coming back to add.
 
renosteinke said:
No offense to the poster ... but this "bedroom" issue is getting tedious.
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Well, this was a hallway issue, not a bedroom issue. :D :D

I didn't realize the intent of your question, Dennis, my apologies. :)
 
I would consider this a hallway- one outlet if it is 10', none if less.
George, how often do you plan on changing your avatar? I kind of miss "Curious"!
 
My two cents is that the bedroom begins at the door. The hallway portion after that is part of the bedroom.
 
I get into this every day with the big maga shacks in SW Florida. A door seperates the bedroom from the living room. A door seperates the bathroom from the bed room. The hallways and the closets leading to the bedroom, if there is no door seperating them, are in the bedroom. Sometimes, you enter thru a door and to the left is the bedroom, no door. And to the right is the hallway and the closets and the bathroom, no door. Now it becomes a problem. This is when we look at the floor. Why? Tile. If the floor is tile it is in the bathroom. Carpeted it is the bedroom area. If it is all tile or all carpet you look for headers and declare this to be a doorway.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Okay, lets try this one. You enter a door from the living room into the master suite hallway (10' long, 3' wide). To the left is a bathroom with a door. The right side has a door to a walk in closet. You continue down the hall into the master bedroom proper (no door). Can you guess the question??? Is the 3’ wide hallway that leads up to the bedroom considered part of the bedroom thus needing outlets according to 210.52 (A) instead of 210.52 (H)?
What about the smoke detectors. I know that smoke detectors are not in the nec but they are in our NC State building code. I read it but it doesn’t seem to indicate that one has to be placed outside the suite. I would think that the bedroom is the sleeping area and the hall is just that (3’ wide-can’t be a bedroom???). Nowhere that I know of does a door enter into the equation. I would think a smoke detector would be best placed inside the bedroom (sleeping area) and outside the suite (not in the 3’ wide hall leading to it).
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I had a very similar situation in the large (7800sq.ft. +) house we did a couple of years ago, the main difference being that the hallway was L-shaped, and two closets and the master bath were on the side leg of the L.

I considered this a hallway, and it got 1 receptacle with no disagreement from the inspector. First, the only purpose of a hall receptacle is for vacuuming. Second, the hallway (with 3 ceiling lights) is too narrow for any tables and/or floor lamps.

As for smokes, there was one outside the hallway door (between this entrance and the one to the guest bedroom), a second one in the hallway (so it was between the bath/closet area and the bedroom), and a third inside the bedroom itself.
 
I had a similar situation as the OP.

My print didn't show an outlet in the hallway - so we didn't put one in.
During the rough inspection, a rep from the GC attended as well as myself and the EI. The EI said "You need an outlet there" ...I just looked at the GC - I told the GC prior to the rough we would need an outlet there, he decided that we didn't. That decsion cost him extra.
 
From what the OP said this sounds like your average master bedroom with bath and closet.Only real differance from the normal is its shape.Nothing says what shape or size a bedroom must be.Even in normal square bedrooms we must include unuseable spaces like behind doors.This one IMO has a 3 foot by 10 foot unuseable space.The stamped print would be your final answer,was it called a hall ? Or was it included in that area behind the first door and called a bedroom ? Way i would wire this is as per print.Before starting talk to GC or owner and tell them that as drawn it likely will not pass.Should it fail it will cost far more to add.Give them a price and option.I ran into this on a house where kitchen counter would force me to put outlet sideways under a window.The GC said no way and he refused to allow it.I saved my own ass by asking inspecter what he wanted.The outlet got put in.I had it layed out so it be simple to add.
The OP has another issue to think about too.Where will you place the smokes if this turns out to be called bedroom space.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
The OP has another issue to think about too.Where will you place the smokes if this turns out to be called bedroom space.
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I recall something about smokes being placed no more than 16' from the pillow in a bedroom.

Anyone have the actual reference?
 
celtic said:
I recall something about smokes being placed no more than 16' from the pillow in a bedroom.

Anyone have the actual reference?
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It,s inside sleeping area and outside within 10 feet i think.I would put one just outside this door in living room and another near main area of bedroom as well as one in this maybe hallway.
 
celtic said:
I recall something about smokes being placed no more than 16' from the pillow in a bedroom.

Anyone have the actual reference?
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Read the manufacturers specs included in the smoke dtector box. The ones I say it will cover 15 feet to the door of the bedroom. Thus one in the middle of a 30' long hallway will cover it. Of course, one doesn't usually see hallways that long.

In terms of the smoke locations. I have determined exactly what at least two of you have said. Put in 3 smokes One in the bedroom, one in the hall, and one outside the door in Living room. HO does not want the one in LR so I dead ended a 14/3 to that point. If we need it the wire is there.

The hall way I left as a hallway-- one receptacle. We will see what the boss Hog says. I am on a T & M so it doesn't matter to me what we have to do. Trying to keep HO happy but am not willing to risk someone's life on it. I thought maybe there was a defined answer to this but I should have known better.

Thank you all for your input. Glad to see I am not the only one dealing with this.
 
In Washington if you access the room thru the bedroom, its considered part of the bedroom for AFCI purposes, except for bathrooms
 
look for the closet

look for the closet

In order for a bedroom to be considered a bedroom it must have a closet. The closet can have door or not, but on appraisal for the appraiser to give bedroom status this is a must. Walk in see the closet this is your bedroom. Nec does not make rule but your players on the secondary mortgage market such as Freddie, Fannie, FHA, VA hold true to this.
 
Webster?s Seventh defines:

Closet: a cabinet or recess for china, household utensils, or clothing
Bedroom: a room furnished with a bed and intended primarily for sleeping
Bathroom: a room containing a bathtub or shower and usually a washbowl and toilet

Hall: a corridor or passage in a building
Corridor: a passageway into which compartments or rooms open
Passage: a corridor or lobby giving access to the different rooms or parts of a building or apartment

I believe there can be a hall inside a bedroom. I would ask for the smoke alarm to be installed outside of both of these but that is a building inspectors call.
 
My building code requires a smoke alarm in each bedroom and in the vicinity of the bedrooms and on each level of the house, interconnected so if one goes off they will all go off.

I meant to say the one in the vicinity of the bedroom would need to be outside of the two rooms we are talking about.
 
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