When is it required to upgrade from 3 wire to 4 wire

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

BCSElectric

Member
Location
Orlando
Occupation
Electrician
I replaced the inside and outside panels but not the 3 wire feeder between. The homeowner wanted the federal Pacific panels changed but not the wire(to save costs). The inspection failed. The AHJ said that the cable had to be changed to 4 wire when both panels are changed. I have done the same in other jurisdictions with no issues(neutral and ground bonded on both panels). Is there a requirement in Florida building code or NEC to replace with 4 wire in this situation? An inspector in another jurisdiction told me it’s grandfathered in and cannot be required to be replaced Unless it is a 25-50% remodel. Can it be required without a reference to prove his opinion?
 
Body having jurisdiction . Tells me 4 wire if you would like to pass the inspection.
I personally feel updating any electrical is better than not even if it isn't to today s code; only in your case you state to save money, which is different than not having the ability to get/have the money.
 
How can it be "grandfathered" if it was never code compliant to begin with?

Separate EGC to non service panel was a rule long before FPE panels existed.
 
kwired said:
How can it be "grandfathered" if it was never code compliant to begin with?

Separate EGC to non service panel was a rule long before FPE panels existed.
Click to expand...
Separate building or structure still has exceptions, but you also must meet the conditions in those exceptions or you will be running separate EGC anyway.
 
I appreciate that there are strong opinions but Can anyone tell me where it is written that an existing three wire must be changed to four wire? If just 1 of the panel is replaced, there would be no requirement to upgrade to 4 wire. Does anybody have a reference that states that if both panels are replaced then 4 wire is required?
 
BCSElectric said:
I appreciate that there are strong opinions but Can anyone tell me where it is written that an existing three wire must be changed to four wire? If just 1 of the panel is replaced, there would be no requirement to upgrade to 4 wire. Does anybody have a reference that states that if both panels are replaced then 4 wire is required?
Click to expand...
There isn't anything written like that.
It's up to the AUTHORITY having JURISDICTION to interpret what's written and apply it to the best of his interpretive abilities.

The scope of what the NEC covers is written as:
90.2 Scope.
(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation and removal of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical ber cables and raceways.....

Are you installing equipment? Sounds like yes

Whether you want to say it's replacing, that's up to you. You have a removal and installation. And it sounds like your AHJ is telling you that you have an installation.

And homeowners don't get to decide based on what they want to pay for.

I work for a few contractors, and one is notorious for saying "we're not doing that" and I say the same thing every time - that's not your decision to make.
 
BCSElectric said:
I appreciate that there are strong opinions but Can anyone tell me where it is written that an existing three wire must be changed to four wire? If just 1 of the panel is replaced, there would be no requirement to upgrade to 4 wire. Does anybody have a reference that states that if both panels are replaced then 4 wire is required?
Click to expand...
As others have alluded to, it does not seem that 3-wire between panels was ever compliant, unless it's some special purpose where only the ground was carried for a single 240 volt load or some other exception. So, if it was a violation then, it's a violation now, and it has to be fixed.
 
BCSElectric said:
I appreciate that there are strong opinions but Can anyone tell me where it is written that an existing three wire must be changed to four wire? If just 1 of the panel is replaced, there would be no requirement to upgrade to 4 wire. Does anybody have a reference that states that if both panels are replaced then 4 wire is required?
Click to expand...
How about 240.24(A)(5)

24,024,A5.JPG

If you can find anywhere that is otherwise permitted then it would be allowed. I know of nothing that permits what you are asking, this is what prohibits it. As said was never code compliant when initially installed so there is nothing to grandfather.
 
BCSElectric said:
I appreciate that there are strong opinions but Can anyone tell me where it is written that an existing three wire must be changed to four wire? If just 1 of the panel is replaced, there would be no requirement to upgrade to 4 wire. Does anybody have a reference that states that if both panels are replaced then 4 wire is required?
Click to expand...

I'd say you're framing it backwards. The (usually unwritten?) grandfathering rule says that if you don't touch it then it's not your obligation to fix it. In this case you touched it so you have to fix it, i.e. install it to current code. Doesn't matter what it was before, it just has to be 4-wire now because that's code.

Also I don't agree about 1 vs. two panels. Around here I'd be obligated to fix the 3-wire if I replaced either panel.
 
Around here once you touch it you own it, if an existing installation is sub code at time it was originally done (previous to your changes) the AHJ is within their right to withhold certification and red tag the installation.
 
Fred B said:
Around here once you touch it you own it, if an existing installation is sub code at time it was originally done (previous to your changes) the AHJ is within their right to withhold certification and red tag the installation.
Click to expand...

all i gotta do is ride by it here..... :oops: ~RJ~
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top