Where do electrons come from?

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Mattula

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I have asked this question in the company of many much more intelligant than me..........so here goes...

Lets say at the Hoover Dam.......the water spins the turbines..... turning the motors applying a voltage....the motor spins.....the brushes across the magnet poles causing the current to alternate.

The atoms in a wire are lined in a row like dominos. The valence electrons jump from shell to shell to shell etc.....when a voltage is applied.

So back at the Dam ......(where the power is generated from) where do the electons "spawn" from. If each copper wire has 8 valence electrons by composition........ Once a voltage is applied and the electons leave that atom....... does the first atom become depleted of electons? Or is there an endless supply? How does this work? Come on I know theres a genius among us!
 
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For electricity to flow, you need a circuit...you know, a circle! Round and around the electrons go...
I'm sure one of the smarter guys can give a good technical explination (I'd like one, myself) but I think that is basically it.
 
The rotating magnetic field sweeping the stator windings do not actually create electrons, they induce them to move. The "replenishing", or make-up electrons come from the "return" wire, meaning the second conductor (in a simple 2-wire circuit).

As John touched on, that's why a circuit requires, well, a circuit; a closed loop of conductive pathway. For current to flow with any functionality, the electrons must have a pathway "back to the source", a phrase you've heard before, no doubt.

Remember that, with AC, the flow reverses 120 times per second. DC generators actually create AC internally, but commutators (or rectifiers in "synthesized" DC) convert that current into DC. Unless filtered, the DC is pulsating, one polarity of a sine wave.
 
http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#light

The concept that electrical power is the result of electrons running from one end of the wire to the other is incorrect. Electrical signals move at about the speed of light. Electrons have finite mass when at rest. If they moved at the speed of light, they would have to have infinite mass. You wouldn't be able to lift the wires.

Electrical energy is like waves that travel through the air (sound) or the ocean. The water that arrives on the beach did not arrive at hundreds of miles per hour from a thousand miles away. The wave was excited by energy and it transmitted energy.

Check out the descriptions at the link above.
 
Doesn't it have to do with a field created within the windings that generates "lines of flux". When the lines of flux cut through a conductive material is sets those electrons in motion, producing an EMF (Electro motive force) ?
 
Yep, the electrons must travel round and round the circuit. In a long A/C circuit (say 500' from tranformer to load) one single electron may travel near the speed of light around that circuit making several thousand laps in 1/120th of a second before the flow stops and reverses for the second half of the alternating current cycle. (during a severe short circuit of course) No electrons are created or destroyed or acquired or rejected, just moved around from atom to atom to atom faster than a flea on a hot griddle!!!
 
While the "flow" of electrons approaches the speed of light (not quite there - depends on the material it is flowing through, and its physical properties - to determine the actual speed of propogation) indivdual electrons are *NOT* speeding willy-nilly great distances - it actually takes YEARS for an electron to travel much distance. This is even more true in an AC circuit as the "flow" changes direction and the electrons actually move to-and-fro. Think of it more as a pipe full of tennis balls - when you shove one in on one end, another pops out the other end - net flow. While in college one of our test questions involved actual electron net movement - based on the given parameters of the wire and electrical flow in the question (from a switch to a light) it took 9 years for an electron to travel the 15 feet from the light to the switch (based on the test scenario).
 
electrons in random motion

electrons in random motion

the electrons that are moving at or near the speed of light are moving in a random motion, undergoing collisions with the other electrons. the average speed of the random motion is around 10^6 m/s.

the electrons that are moving in a particular direction are actually moving quite slowly, and this speed which is called the drift speed is around 10^-4 m/s.

MP
 
I like to compare "electricity" to a wheel. Imagine a wheel on an axle. With one hand, you spin the wheel. The entire wheel moves at once. It appears that every atom know to move at the exact same time or "speed of light". The more energy you put into the wheel, the faster and longer it will spin. Now, you place your other hand onto the spinning wheel. Energy is transferred into this "new load" as heat (fiction). In order to keep the wheel spinning, more energy must be applied by the other hand spinning the wheel.

In the end, the individual atoms of the wheel have very little to do with the transfer of energy from one hand to the other hand...

Electricity in conductors works much like this analogy...
 
You guys are missing the point that BobNH was trying to make. We talk about the flow of electricity, and electricity being associated with the movement of electrons, but the ELECTRONS ARE NOT FLOWING. The energy of the excited electrons is flowing, but not the electrons themselves. They move to adjacent atoms, then back an forth, but they are not coming from somewhere like a generator and flowing into a giant pit called earth.

Here is a useful analogy. Line up 10 pennies and one dime at the end of the line on a table top. Flick the first penny and the dime moves. All of the pennies in between shifted a little, but are still there in their relative position. Your finger represents the generator, the pennies are the wire, the dime is the work done. The movement (energy in the form of kinetic energy) that transferred from your finger through the pennies to the dime represents the electricity.
 
They are already there in the windings of the generator, and conductors as the sub-particles of the atoms making up the conductive material. EMF that the generator is 'generating' makes them move. Another analogy I like is water in a straw... Blow or suck on the straw and the water column moves. In DC those electrocs do go from one place to another, but in AC they just go back and forth.

Back to those questions:
does the first atom become depleted of electons? Or is there an endless supply? How does this work? Come on I know theres a genius among us!

Yes, an electron can be depleted to a certain extent of electrons, and likewise have too many. In certain situations of bondiing of or removal of bonds on the atomic level can change the material by changing the number of electrons and thier placement.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/bond.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/chemical/bondd.html
http://www.discover.com/issues/jan-05/features/chemistry/chemists-find-new-bonds/
http://www.chemsoc.org/networks/learnnet/cfb/basicchemistry.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covalent_bond

The 'doping' process in some semi-comductive material depends on the bonding of certain atomic structures, and sheading or gaining electrons can sometimes be required to acheive those bonds.

But no.... For the atom to exist it could never be completely depleted of electrons, at a certian point it would become non-conductive and would always have some left....
 
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Water flowing through a hose is often used as an analogy for current flowing through a wire. There are many similarities, and most people have sprayed water from a hose or drunk water from a fountain. So the analogy is easy for most people to understand. But this particular thread brings up on of the main differences between water and current, one key way in which the analogy does not work. No, actually two differences.

One is that you can pump water out of one barrel and dump it onto the ground. The water spilling out on the ground will not find its way back into the barrel, and it doesn?t have to. As long as the barrel is not yet empty, you can keep the flow going, with no need for the water that was pumped away to find its way back to the suction of the pump again. Water flow does not require a complete circuit.

Another key difference is the manner in which any given molecule of water discovers that the pump has been turned on, the manner in which each molecule of water feels the force that originates from the pump. It starts with the metal face of the pump?s impeller being in intimate, physical contact with some number of molecules of water. The impeller exerts a force on those molecules, and they in turn push the water molecules next to them, and they all start to move. The molecules of water 10 feet downstream from the pump will not feel the force until the ones 9 feet from the pump have felt it. The push propagates from molecule to molecule. Each ?chuck? of water is pushed by the one before it, and pushes the one after it.

By contrast, an electric current needs a complete path. Here is why. When you close the switch to complete an electric circuit, the power source (generator, transformer, battery, UPS, whatever) establishes an electric field throughout the complete path. Without the complete path, there would be no electric field. That electric field will exert a force on every electron throughout the wires, and it will do so all at once. Every single electron will feel the same force at the same moment. The field pushes the electron that is 10 feet from the battery at the same moment that it pushes the electron that is 9 feet from the battery. One electron is not pushed by the one before it, and it does not push the one after it. All are pushed, and at the same time, and all by the same electric field.

To be more complete in my story, I must admit that the protons in the middle of the copper atoms also feel this same force, and at the same time the electrons feel it. But the electric field (and thus the force) that a battery can generate will never be strong enough to get the protons moving. In fact, it will only be strong enough to move the valence electrons, which generally amounts to only one or two electrons in the outer shell of the atom, depending on whether it is an atom of copper or aluminum or some other conductive material of which the load may be constructed. The force generated from the battery will not move the electrons in the inner shells; it?s just not strong enough. They will feel the force, but they have stronger forces that tend to keep them in their places.

Now let?s talk about drift velocity.

In one particular atom, in the outer (valence) shell, resides an electron named ?Red Fred.? You turn on the circuit, and Red Fred will feel a force. It causes him to jump away from his home atom, and into the atom that is one position further downstream (i.e., in the direction of the push, the direction of what will become the current flow). That atom now has one too many electrons spinning around its center, and it will not be happy about that. An electron is going to have to leave. They are all feeling the same force, but at least one will have to leave. Let us presume, for there is no reason not to presume, that Red Fred is not the one to leave. Red Fred stays with its new home atom, and ?Blue Lou? jumps away. When Blue Lou makes it to the next atom downstream, he winds up stuck there, and Green Jean makes her move to the next atom. Some significant time later, Red Fred will finally be kick out (again, by the same force that got this business started in the first place) and will find a new home in another atom further downstream.

The net effect of this process is two-fold. First, any single electron will merely ?drift? down the wire at the speed of cold molasses flowing down a tree trunk. Thus the term, "drift velocity." However, to a person with a stopwatch and a writing pad who is keeping track of the movement of electrons, there will be no way to tell if the electron that just passed by was Red Fred or Blue Lou or Green Jean or any other. They will all look alike. So the observer is going to say that a large number of electrons just blew past his position in a short amount of time. Let us suppose that the observer counted a total of 6,240,000,000,000,000,000 electrons moving past his position in one second of time (he?s a fast counter). That is essentially the definition of ?one amp of current.?

Now, at last, to answer the original question. When an electron leaves an atom, what happens to the atom? Well an electron from further upstream will fill in the vacant position, for a while anyway. But the jumping around from atom to atom will continue until you open the switch.

One final note. In an AC circuit, the electrons are jumping from atom to atom in one direction for the first half cycle, then they jump from atom to atom in the other direction for the other half cycle. That is the meaning of the ?A? word (?alternating?) in the phrase ?AC? (?alternating current?).
 
Very good set of practical explanations from everyone!

Having had the pleasure of working on hydraulic systems, I must say that it's sometimes easier to deal with getting those electrons moving again, instead of getting those hydrocarbons to get back where they came from!
 
If you aren't confused enough yet, in a copper wire, the electrons that take part in conduction don't really "belong" to any one atom. As billions of copper atoms get squished together to make a wire, many of the outter electrons pretty much just float around in the wire. There is no net surplus of electrons, and no net deficency, but there is no way to point to one electron and say "it belongs to this atom". This is sometimes refered to as a "sea of free electrons".
 
True story
We once had a 10/4 SO cord that ran between machines get damaged and bare wire was showing, while someone ran up town to get some new cord i set the bad section on a bucket, and one of the operators came by and asked why i set it on a bucket and i told him that i was catching the leaking trons and was going to dump them back in to the transformer. He went and told his supervier that told the plant manager, they was going to give me a cost savings award when they figured it out and ripped me a new one.
 
charlie b said:
Now come on, Steve, let us not let truth get in the way of a good story! :grin: :D

Well ... I was going to post and say that a complete circuit isn't required for static electricity, but I was having too good a time learning about Red Fred :)

As regards the water analogy -- what makes water "move" isn't some kind of intimate physical contact. The water molecule will never touch the metal molecule. Long before they'd come in contact, electrostatic repulsion between their valence electrons will come into play. It's an otherwise good analogy and one that I use every time I teach electrical safety. (For those of y'all who are curious, I use "garden hose" and "soda straw" analogies to teach people why they shouldn't overload or overextend circuits, which is the primary safety problem I'm confronting.)
 
A different look

A different look

I think what Mattula wrote "
Where do electrons come from?
"
is a simple question. They dig up the electrons from the dirt...:smile: ..(well yes). In a simple way, The Generator at the Hover Dam make electricity (electrons) The electrons get into the generator from the neutral wire or the earth ground. It MUST form a complete loop out and back.

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Charlie b Wrote
"Water flowing through a hose is often used as an analogy for current flowing through a wire. There are many similarities

One is that you can pump water out of one barrel and dump it onto the ground. The water spilling out on the ground will not find its way back into the barrel, and it doesn?t have to. As long as the barrel is not yet empty, you can keep the flow going, with no need for the water that was pumped away to find its way back to the suction of the pump again. Water flow does not require a complete circuit.

With a slight change this will work
Replace the Barrel with a well and pump (generator). Don't spill the water on the ground but, put it in a trough (Neutral)that drains back to the well (complete path.) any water that gets spilled off to the side (ground fault leakage) will travel back to the well through the dirt (earth ground).

Charlie b Wrote
Another key difference is the manner in which any given molecule of water discovers that the pump has been turned on, the manner in which each molecule of water feels the force that originates from the pump. It starts with the metal face of the pump?s impeller being in intimate, physical contact with some number of molecules of water. The impeller exerts a force on those molecules, and they in turn push the water molecules next to them, and they all start to move. The molecules of water 10 feet downstream from the pump will not feel the force until the ones 9 feet from the pump have felt it. The push propagates from molecule to molecule. Each ?chuck? of water is pushed by the one before it, and pushes the one after it.

By contrast, an electric current needs a complete path. Here is why

Water need a complete path also, back to the earth. to simulate an disconnected wire or open switch with a pipe, you must cap the pipe(has water pressure (Voltage), No water flowing (No amps)

Now let?s talk about drift velocity.

If you line up ten buckets full of water. each bucket has an overflow spout to the next. Flow one ounce of water into the first bucket. it will overflow one ounce of water into the second bucket (not the same water but equal volume). One ounce of water will flow from the tenth bucket. This will happen faster than it would if the ounce of water had to flow the complete distance. As an electron is pushed into the next atom (a small jump) the electron on the far side to the atom (a great distance) will jump to the next atom and so on and so on..............

The tenth bucket would flow into our load (paddle wheel ???) and then into some more buckets with spouts and back to the well to be pumped again. (P.S. this is a DC circuit, For AC you would need to seesaw the row of buckets up and down 60 times a second (it's hard not to make a mess.))

This is a very GOOD thread to read and you all deserve credit as you all are correct in what you are saying
 
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