Where's the Pride

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dcv

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texas
Does anyone have any Ideas on how to get crew members to keep quality high. I mean, installing electrical rooms that one can be proud of. Why do I have to keep saying "No, that is not what I told you, fix it" or "make sure all your bends match" or "go buy a level and you can try again tomorrow"..... where's the pride, I have seen electrical rooms over 40 years old all rigid pipe all bend matching,not 1 threadless or union fitting very well planned out very professional.Why is this impossible today without a fight?
Thanks,
dcv
 
Re: Where's the Pride

Reward high quality work with high quality pay.

Pay less for substandard workmanship.

Insist on the best, fire the rest.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

Production has been the key element,in todays $ verse out put seems quaity is what suffers.No matter if commercial/industrial/residential it all comes down to the bottom line $$$$$$ ;)
 
Re: Where's the Pride

Originally posted by dcv:
... where's the pride, I have seen electrical rooms over 40 years old all rigid pipe all bend matching,not 1 threadless or union fitting very well planned out very professional.Why is this impossible today without a fight?
Thanks,
dcv
Click to expand...
Hummm,
Well,It left and went out the gate with some contractors honesty I guess.Yeh,your probably the exception to the rule and thumb.But is everyone?I'm still in search of you. Do yourself and company that employs actually reward for such craftmanship,not that I wouldn't offer it anyway.Are you honest to employees. Do contractors reward loyalty,honesty,hard work.(big question).A employee who will comes in on time,doesn't (Bull-S--) around in,and cares about the installation.Really cares about what he puts his hands on.When employee works over to pull contractors butt out of a sling,for what ever reason.Missed-it on prints,labor unit mistakes,(which of course is never a contributing factor) do you thank the man that goes that extra mile for you. This team effort,do you treat him fair.Surely you do sir.

How many illegal-aliens have you on your payroll, driving the pay-scale of this craft to a downward spiral.-Notice- that I will be useing, emphasizing the word of the Team.I live in a State that the illegals are 70% or better of the construction workforce.I can't beleive its because they work better,perform safer,and better eye-candy.It's plainly because there cost-effective.I am finding it hard to obtain,and even keep a job.I read where contractors in this form,are talking-about the bottom line revenue,does the craftsman of this trade also deserve to make a decent living,and respect also.

No Mr. contractor, I don't have an attitude about you and this field.I do care about the installation. My name,is on it too shared with yours.I come to work on time,try in performing the best of the craft.The said eye-candy that you seek in a reasonable amount of time.I don't steal from you,(material or time),I don't lie to you.I'll look you in the eye,tell you the truth,take it on the chin when I'm wrong.I'll will pass your piss test when insurance required.I'll look after your tools/equipment,your bottom line.But do you look upond this as being part of the team effort.Just what does team effort mean to you.Wanting my self respect also? I remember an Electrician saying,I worked for every jerk in the Tri-State area.Take heed sir.Seems like this Tri-State area has no boundaries.Now I don't personally know that man who made this statement.But just for the fact of him being in form...I read his words,and bet he cares about his performance/craft, and looking for a team to be part of.I do know, how this man feels.

It's a -two way- street.I know cost is affecting you.It is also affects us expediting the work in the field.I know you have alot to contend with on your day in day out operation/executions.Don't think for a minute I don't.Insurance/bonding/suppyer/clients/exct.The day to day expences/headache/crying/ in running your operations.The lively-hood of many families,your name and your own personal wealth at stake.(I have seen both sides,Mr. Contractors).Some of you will reply with,I wouldn't want that man on my team.I have wrong attittued.When in fact,you would be lucky to have such watching your backs.Anyone notice in my postings,I go out of my way to be respectfull/nice.I call you sir,Mr. or Mr. Brother Electrician.I still feel the need to be respectful as I was raised.This is on a personal note,that I live it.

But can't find/locate this on the other side of the fence,in the shoes yourself occupy.So I'll continue to seek/in finding this in another aspect of this trade.I'll train for something else related.And will be useing all of my personal saving/efforts to finance.And I'll still be a part of this trade I love and respect.But I'll become a member of another team. I will put forward my greatest effort to serve it.And I'll leave this trade/craft to you and your Illegal Aliens that you employ,and the matching prevailing wages Mr. Contractor.Hope it serves you well..Bidding you good luck,many successes, and day-in safety sirs..Yeh,I have been waiting for this topic,it's long overdue.Been wondering who was going to show the cohonas' first..Bet you have a defensive reply too to this statement Mr.Contractor..But before you reply with your emotion and rage,maybe you should read this again..Its not a attitude problem,just a fair shake in employee treatment alone..You can't have my self respect,not part of the bargain on the table sir...

--dillon3c :( --

[ February 13, 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: Where's the Pride

Does anyone have any Ideas on how to get crew members to keep quality high.
Click to expand...
Msd had the answer - "Reward high quality work with high quality pay."

In my area, the problem started back in the 1960s, when my employer was put in a position where he was required to pay all of his electricians the same wage. ;)

The conscientious workers had to be paid the same as the guys hiding under a stairwell, playing cards, who were trying to make the job last longer.
I was there, as the job foreman, trying to find these guys and get them to work.

If my employer fired them, he was required to replace them with others from the same source.

That was when I started thinking about teaching at the Trade School.

Ed
 
Re: Where's the Pride

I am willing to bet anyone interested enough to read this web site is already on board with doing a proud job.
The electrical trade has become so large and diversified that there simply are a lot of people "that can do that". On the defensive side, installations that are 40 years old, while darn pretty to look at, might not be up to the task in todays environment. I have some guys here that are old school and encourage them to " do it pretty" and not worry a lot about the profit margin. I have others that" just don't see why.....". The old school ways rarely needs to be done over, the other is an ongoing effort. I encourage the older guys to shame the cubs into raising their sights. Now, one of the hardest workers I ever had was someone that was good on rough work and rough on good work. Sometimes you need to find a place where a person can shine....even if it's on a rock pile.


I remember back when I was a Journeyman doing a residential trim out. I had a green helper who was a bit on the rebellious side. One day after he put a switch plate on, I had him line the screws up and down. He rolled his eyes and asked what difference it made. I told him the difference is not in the job but in the electrician. People probably won't notice if you left them wherever but they will notice that they are in order. If what they see is squared away, they will feel better about what they can't. He liked that and started taking more pride in everything else. He also noticed that the screws weren't lined up when the painters put the plates back on everywhere we had finished.

I too wish that there were more craftsmen in the electrical field, who pursue the upward learning process.

The most dangerous electrician is one that knows everything.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

I agree with what Dillon3c wrote.

Rick Hart has it right"I am willing to bet anyone interested enough to read this website is already on board with doing a proud job."

I was brought up that if you are going to do it half *** don't do it at all and anything worth doing is doing right. When I was green in the trade i was fortunate to work with journeyman that wanted to teach me. Where they always kind, no. Did they be little me, sometimes. But most of the time if I made a mistake then I deserved the repromand. It toughened me up and made me think about what I was doing. I worked with a journeyman on Fairhaven High School and he taught me to take pride in my work. There is no reason for sloppy work. If someone wants to go to break or it is Friday and they want to go home does that give them the right to not supprt the 2x4 fluorescent fixture. NO because they wouldn't have to explain to the little girl or boy whos father was a fireman that they were lazy and thats why it fell on there DaD and killed him. More than one life depends on the work we do everyday thats why we when to school to learn about Electrical theory. Theres more to it than plugs and lights. I try to do my best everyday. Everyone is human and makes mistakes but as long as you can fix it it?is ok. You ask yourself Did anyone get hurt? Can it be fixed? Then it is not a problem. I love to bend pipe. If I could do it everyday then I would be in my glory. Theres something about when I'm done with a pipe rack and all the bends, and saddles match. I can see that I created something and I know I put my all in it. Maybe it does have to do with the dollar you are getting paid. Things seem to be changing kids are lazy. When I was an apprentice not to long ago there was never garbage hanging around. The stock was rarely a mess. That was my job. I didn't know anything but then I was not expected to know anything. My job was to help the license guy. Make sure he didn't work too hard. Good workers are hard to come by so when I meet a kid who wants to learn I happy to teach. No one knows everything. We all learn everyday. But pride I feel is the most important thing to teach. By mouth or example
 
Re: Where's the Pride

By Dillon3c:

Well,It left and went out the gate with some contractors honesty I guess.Yeh,your probably the exception to the rule and thumb.But is everyone?I'm still in search of you.
Click to expand...
I agree with Dillon3c. I want to work for contractors that want quality. But there ain't a lot.

I've had EC's tell me that I run NM too neatly and stop it. I know it's getting covered. And I'm not spending that much extra time keeping it clean, you can get good at it so that it doesn't take forever.

On the other hand, when I'm working for a general contractor and not being paid hourly they just love pretty work to pieces.

I think the bottom line is that the mentality of the industry as a whole is generating the condition. People who work for ten or fifteen years in an environment where quantity gets a pay check and quality gets you fired never develope the skills to do things well. They develope the skills to do things fast.

I've said before how much this diturbs me too.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

I am willing to bet anyone interested enough to read this website is already on board with doing a proud job."
Click to expand...
YES,YES,YES, I agree and I think I will ask my boss to make it a hiring requirement.
I have tried the raise and praise and that only works for a short time with most.
A good friend of mind introduced me to this website and I drank it down like a cold beer on a hot day,I have tried to get others interested ,but I have had very little luck ,and I really find that strange except in the case of my wife, if its not at the mall she's not interested.
dcv
 
Re: Where's the Pride

And as the new owner of the company I work for says, "I don't give a d@mn what the specs say about running EMT and using steal fittings. Put the MC cable in and do it now!"

"Okay...you're the boss." :(
 
Re: Where's the Pride

We do mosttly residential work for our main stay,commercial is a pet dept. and they don`t have the production pressure that the residential dept has.But even with the production pressure we try to do quality work.But I see day to day the total lack of caring.Plate screws going 9 different directions,Vanity strips that look like a drunk installed them,Condensing units that have a data plate that lists the max as a 25 AMP and there is a 30 on it(All I had on the truck excuse)We have 140 employees.I bet we have 15 guys that can go to a trim read KW rating on a wall oven and know what is the correct breaker to install :(
 
Re: Where's the Pride

I must say that I agree with Allenwayne. The bottom line in any business is what the customer will bear, whether it be price, quality, or both. Recent trends seem to support that customers (that would be all of us) are willing to sacrifice workmanship to save cost as long as it works. If this were not true, those contractors that don't meet the minimum standard expectation would find it very difficult to stay in business. We, the consumer, have lowered our expectations so they are able to stay in business. This is not only an employer's problem. Sometimes the employer's have no choice but to work with the employees they have. Sometimes we employees have too much job protection and it can be very difficult for an employer to release substandard employees once they have been hired. Quality workmanship is the responsibility of all of us. If employers don't demand high quality or we don't produce it, sooner or later we can expect to be on the unemployment lines one way or another.

Bob
 
Re: Where's the Pride

To those contractors that think fast is always cheaper, you need to make them realize that fixing the mistakes are MUCH more costly than doing it right the first time. In today's market there is a fine balance between timelyness and craftsmanship... the key is finding what the job will bear and having some integrity.

And to Dillon and the others looking for respect, the only way is to join the Union and bargain for your rights, or you'll have none... Together we can DEMAND respect for our craft.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

Originally posted by ddderek:
To those contractors that think fast is always cheaper, you need to make them realize that fixing the mistakes are MUCH more costly than doing it right the first time. In today's market there is a fine balance between timelyness and craftsmanship... the key is finding what the job will bear and having some integrity.

And to Dillon and the others looking for respect, the only way is to join the Union and bargain for your rights, or you'll have none... Together we can DEMAND respect for our craft.
Click to expand...
Did I fail to mention that I am union and my boss who wants to cheapen the job is a union contractor? And the LU is doing a great job of backing the contractors these days in order to get work, any work, for all the JW's on the books?

I could go in and make waves, but then I'll be at the bottom of the 400+ man out of work list and looking at 6-9 months on the Washington State sponsored fishing team, while my kids live off of Mac-n-Cheese and Top Ramen, maybe some fish if I do well for the state team. No thanks, I'll just put in the MC cable at this time.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

DITTO RYAN!

We are a small shop 6 field electricians. LEt me say that again 6 QUALITY field electricians. Why? Because I demand it of them! I pay them good, I provide benefits, I take care of them.

I don't want to get into a union vs non-union discussion, but suffice it to say we ARE non-union and a merit shop. Merit pay for merit work. All electricians are NOT created equal.
To dcv demand higher quality. The rest comes naturally. Also higher pay does not produce higher quality without training! Maybe your crew needs some training.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

DITTO RYAN AGAIN!

Derek, there is good and bad in both union and non union shops, and I would say it is pretty equal, so leave your thinking at the house.

One thing I would like to point out besides being compensated monetarily, I know personally a compliment or some bragging on from a Superior meant a lot to me, probably more so than a raise at times, so I try to remember this in my daily routine.

It's easy to criticize one for a poor installation and doing so repeatedly with out some compliments when the installation shines will break the spirit of a person wanting to do his work with pride.

It's sad that many times a nice piece of work goes unnoticed. :(

Roger
 
Re: Where's the Pride

I have no experience with running a crew but let me say this:

Praise publicly, criticize privately.

Nothing kills morale faster than a boss or crew leader who never has anything good to say and is always yelling.

Praise your guys when they do a good job. Saying "Nice work!" and "Good job!" isn't going to hurt anybody.

Electricians are human beings. Humans make mistakes and mess up sometimes. It happens to the best on occasion. Life goes on. But if someone screws up constantly, they have to go.

The good electricians will excel if they are paid well and praised for a job well done.
 
Re: Where's the Pride

Not just praise either. Don't be afraid to tell them thanks. Even if it's just they put in extra time to finis a job. How hard is it to find good competent professional workers? Well from what everyone has said here it is very difficult. Tell the guy that does a good job thanks. Not even with something extra, just say "Thanks". Don't stand over their backs with a whip either. Check on them but check to make sure that they are OK. If you have someone working on their own, especially around electricity. Just stop by and tell them you want to see if they're alive. Ask them if there is something they need to make the job easier. Supervisor's are not just there to demand, they need to show an interest in their people, and keep problems out of their way. Big thing to note though, you can do this WITHOUT BEING WALKED ON EITHER. Yes I realize the caps is yelling. I have been around to many supervisory, management types that say if you give to your people your being taken advantage of. Not true. Can you personally raise their pay, not in today's environment usually. And someone already mentioned about how an electrician is an electrician and they all get paid the same (Union mentality). Tell them thanks, and when they screw up, don't threaten with writing them up or letting them go. Take them aside, tell them you are not satisfied with their efforts and WHY you are not satisfied. You don't even need to say what consequences are the first time. Next time take action, no threats.
 
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