Which 100 amp breakers will fit in these 200 amp panel/disconnect?

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JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
Hey guys I have a 200 amp exterior disconnect and a 200 amp interior main breaker panel. I want to swap both 200 amp breakers for 100 amp breakers. Not sure if they will fit and accept 2/O copper wire. Maybe you guys can tell me please.

Exterior disconnect:
Murray
LW200VR

Electrical panel:
Square D / Homeline
HOM3060M200PCVP

I've attached photos below. 20220924_104818.jpg 20220924_105147.jpg 20220924_105158.jpg 20220924_105254.jpg 20220924_105647.jpg 20220924_105851.jpg
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Square D does have a 100 amp breaker in that same frame, and I'd guess there is also one for the Murray, but can't confirm either. Next question is if you already have 200 amp conductor (presuming this is for a dwelling where that size is permitted) then why?
 

JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
Square D does have a 100 amp breaker in that same frame, and I'd guess there is also one for the Murray, but can't confirm either. Next question is if you already have 200 amp conductor (presuming this is for a dwelling where that size is permitted) then why?
This is a 200 amp service currently. That 200 amp disconnect shown in the photo feeds the main house panel(not shown). The panel breaker that is shown is just the added panel for a future unit. Original plans were to upgrade to 400 amp and add a second meter, but since the underground wire feeding is 4/O aluminum, this requires a second 4/O feed. Was thinking to just swap these 2 breakers out and leave 200amp service and just split it 100/100 instead of re-trenching.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
If the calculated load on the service is under 200A, it's not a problem to have 200A service conductors supplying (2) 200A service disconnects. See 230.90(A) Exception 3.

Cheers, Wayne
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
This is a 200 amp service currently. That 200 amp disconnect shown in the photo feeds the main house panel(not shown). The panel breaker that is shown is just the added panel for a future unit. Original plans were to upgrade to 400 amp and add a second meter, but since the underground wire feeding is 4/O aluminum, this requires a second 4/O feed. Was thinking to just swap these 2 breakers out and leave 200amp service and just split it 100/100 instead of re-trenching.
What is your load calculation? That 4/0 UG service conductor can feed up to six service disconnects of any rating as long as the calculated load is not more than the 180 ampacity of the 4/0 conductor.
If you add a tap to the load side of the 200 amp service device you still can have whatever you want on the resulting feeder as it is all still protected by the 200 amp main, this presuming you still have a load calculation of 200 or less.
 

JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
If the calculated load on the service is under 200A, it's not a problem to have 200A service conductors supplying (2) 200A service disconnects. See 230.90(A) Exception 3.

Cheers, Wayne
What is your load calculation? That 4/0 UG service conductor can feed up to six service disconnects of any rating as long as the calculated load is not more than the 180 ampacity of the 4/0 conductor.
If you add a tap to the load side of the 200 amp service device you still can have whatever you want on the resulting feeder as it is all still protected by the 200 amp main, this presuming you still have a load calculation of 200 or less.


I'm not sure what the load calculation is. I've never done one. The main house, which has the existing 200 amp exterior disconnect, is just a single story 1200ft² house with gas stove, gas dryer, and central air, and 95% efficiency gas boiler with circulating gas fired hydronic heat, nothing fancy.

Apartment below(650ft²) since on its own meter will have electric stove, electric dryer, one 4ft minisplit AC with heat pump. Possible electric heat if heat pump doesnt work out and possible electric domestic hotwater. If I can get an electric unit that will both heat domestic water and run electric heated hydronic heat, I may do that instead of running straight electric fin tube. But either way, this apartment is gonna be spray foamed and well insulated and 90% below ground, the electric heat is just a backup if heat pump cant keep up. I don't think it would need too much heat regardless

The thing is, I'm confused about how to present this to the inspector at this point or should I even get him involved since power company says I can do the fire underwriters myself. But I wanted the electrical inspector to sign off on it anyway since the apartment may eventually get a certificate of occupancy. Inspector and I had briefly spoken about this underground line and he said 4/0 is not adequate for 400amp. I've even spoken to the power company and they said the same nor did I expect them to know or care what NEC says about 4/O supplying two 200 amp services. I'm not sure if they will even go for it even if inspector signs off on it. Would save me a ton of work though and money. Should I just show the inspector my load calculations?

So the way I see it, I have 3 choices:
1) Switch 200 amp exterior disconnect breaker(supplies main house) to 100 amp and switch 200 amp apartment panel main breaker to 100 amp
2) See if power company and inspector will go for the existing 4/O feeding two 200 amp services.
3) Just run a second set of 4/O.
 

JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
If the calculated load on the service is under 200A, it's not a problem to have 200A service conductors supplying (2) 200A service disconnects. See 230.90(A) Exception 3.

Cheers, Wayne
What is your load calculation? That 4/0 UG service conductor can feed up to six service disconnects of any rating as long as the calculated load is not more than the 180 ampacity of the 4/0 conductor.
If you add a tap to the load side of the 200 amp service device you still can have whatever you want on the resulting feeder as it is all still protected by the 200 amp main, this presuming you still have a load calculation of 200 or less.
Hey, just wanted to thank you guys for bringing up NEC 230.90(A) Exception 3. Turns out utility went for the existing feed, feeding the (2) 200a services. I called my inspector as well and all good there. Found a 2gang meter and all is mostly installed, just a few grounds I'll finish tomorrow. The load calculation is below 180.

Kwired,

Just out of curiosity, you said 180 ampacity for the 4/O. I'm seeing 200 for that wire?
 

JohnDS

Senior Member
Location
Suffolk, Long Island
Occupation
Electrician
Where are you seeing 200 amps? Please look at the 75C column in Table 310.15(B)16
I was looking at Table 310.12, but now that I am looking at the notes A - D, it's confusing. Two inspectors I had spoken with confirmed 200 amps as well but not sure what they were going by as it was a short conversation.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
I was looking at Table 310.12, but now that I am looking at the notes A - D, it's confusing. Two inspectors I had spoken with confirmed 200 amps as well but not sure what they were going by as it was a short conversation.
310.12 applies to service conductors supplying one dwelling unit, but it would not apply to service conductors supplying two dwelling units.

Cheers, Wayne
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Hey, just wanted to thank you guys for bringing up NEC 230.90(A) Exception 3. Turns out utility went for the existing feed, feeding the (2) 200a services. I called my inspector as well and all good there. Found a 2gang meter and all is mostly installed, just a few grounds I'll finish tomorrow. The load calculation is below 180.

Kwired,

Just out of curiosity, you said 180 ampacity for the 4/O. I'm seeing 200 for that wire?
4/0 aluminum has ampacity of 180. It can have 200 amp overcurrent protection since that is the next size up but still limited to 180 amps of load.

As mentioned with allowances for single dwellings you can use it for 200 amps, but a supply for more than one dwelling or anything that is not a dwelling doesn't fit under this allowance.
 
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