whirlpool gfci protection

[terryb]

When testing for gfci protection to the whirlpool, i checked to see if there was a breaker at the main panel (none). There was no access panel to the motor area, so could not check there. I then plugged my tester into all three gfci receptacles in the bathroom and nothing seemed to make the whirlpool trip. I know that my tester is good.
The next day, after i had said there did not seem to be any protection to the whirlpool, a very disgusted homeowner called me to say that she "just pushed the button" on one of the gfci receptacles in the bathroom and the whirlpool motor tripped!
I plugged my tester into the top sockets only. Surely this should still have worked.
From now on i will test both receptacle sockets, and push the trip button manually also.
Any comments guys?

 

[charlie b]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

I'm going to need some backup on this one. Given the following: (1) Let's presume your tester is working properly, and (2) That tester did not trip the bathroom GFCI, and (3) The bathroom GFCI's own test button did cause a trip, then I suspect there might not be a ground wire connected to the GFCI receptacle.

If you have an older house that has a two-wire system (i.e., no equipment grounding conductors), and if you install a GFCI receptacle (e.g., in a bathroom), that receptacle can perform its GFCI function properly, but a tester will show it as a failure to trip. It may be or may not be within code requirements to have a two-wire system. But if there is a three prong receptacle that has no ground wire, there needs to be a label warning the user that there is no ground wire.

So in your case, you were right to report the fact that your tester did not cause a trip. You might add to the report (or to future reports) the suggestion that an electrician should be brought in to investigate the circumstances, and that it can not be certain whether or not there is a code violation until the electrician has had a chance to look at the system.

p.s. You might consider saying "Any comments guys and gals." We have both varieties here.

 

[terryb]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Thanks charlieb for your comments. I WILL say " guys and gals" from now on. My apologies to all those gals out there.
I agree with and understand your comments.
However, i still dont understand, a condition i have encountered with gfci receptacles when the tester will cause a trip from the top plug in socket, but not the bottom one.
I am fairly new to the U.S. and have encountered these problems in Europe, although things there are slightly different.

 

[tom baker]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Plug in GFCI testers creat a current imbalance by inserting a resistance line to ground. A gfci test button operates Line to neutral. If the gfci tester doesn't trip it, then you have a missing equipment grounding conductor.
By the way there is a great article on the shortcomings of the plug in recpt testers in this months IAEI news. A recp can be wired backwards and it will test OK!

 

[charlie b]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Originally posted by terryb:I still don't understand, a condition I have encountered with gfci receptacles when the tester will cause a trip from the top plug in socket, but not the bottom one.

Are you saying that you have actually encountered this? It's strange to me.

Does anyone know if a standard GFCI receptacle can be split, and served by two separate circuits, in the same way as a standard duplex receptacle? Could this be part of the answer to this strange behavior?

 

[terryb]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Thanks again charlie b. I tried to explain, probably in a confusing manner, a problem i had the other day, again with whirlpool gfci.
Figured out which gfci receptacle i thought the whirlpool was connected to. Tripped the receptacle successfully with my tester, but the whirlpool motor still kept running.
Then the homeowner, the next day, tripped the same receptacle manually, and the motor ceased running !
Guidance from the forum has made me understand the difference between testing manually and with a tester. But whichever way you look at it, the gfci receptacle was tripped in both situations, why did the motor keep running when i tried it.
I had egg all over my face. Any further thoughts?

 

[ramsy]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Originally posted by terryb:
..Then the homeowner, the next day, tripped the same receptacle manually, and the motor ceased running

1) Maybe motor terminals are fed from multiple locations. Check how the timer is fed.

2) Maybe GFCI rec. was damaged. Hurk points out GFCI rec. are not rated for motor switching. If GFCI trip mechanism opens intermittently, multiple tests are needed to rule this out. (disconnect motor load before testing GFCI)

3) Maybe timer stopped motor at same time homeowner tripped the GFCI, or someone else tripped breakers in the panel. You need to watch HO do this.

4) If motor is cord connected, maybe someone moved the cord between tests.

[ February 01, 2006, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: ramsy ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Does anyone know if a standard GFCI receptacle can be split, and served by two separate circuits, in the same way as a standard duplex receptacle?

There are no GFCIs that fuction that way.
Don

 

[ramsy]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

Tried that once. 2 seperate phases on one side of GFCI, and neutral pig tailed on the other side. Hit test-trip button and BAAM, bolted fault tripped both breakers.

I hung my head down for a while, contemplating if I was too old for another career change.

 

[haskindm]

Re: whirlpool gfci protection

May be this is one of those "10 percent of all GFCI's are defective" that Mike was talking about. If the receptacle continues to conduct power when it trips due to a ground fault (which your tester simulates) but trips and interrupts current when tripped using the test button, you have located a defective GFCI. It appears that in the event of a ground fault this receptacle would continue to operate even though it appears to be tripped. If this is the case the customer should be thanking you for pointing out a dangerous situation. I don't see any egg on your face.