Whirlpool Motor Grounding with Pex?

[yzman720]

We have a new construction home that I am installing a whirlpool tub in. I have ran a 12/2 with ground dedicated circuit that will have a gfi on the outlet that the tub will plug into. My 2 questions are:

1. The entire house is ran in pex what do I ground the motor ground lug to on the motor itself?

2. The directions say "The circuit must be a (3) wire circuit from the electrical supply panel. A grounded neutral wire and a third wire, earth ground, are essential."
Is this what I already have with the 12/2 with ground? The wording of that confuses me for some reason.

If it matters the home has no uffer ground, only 2 ground rods will be installed.

 

[GoldDigger]

Do you mean that the rebar in the foundation does not meet the requirements for a CEE or just that no connection point was left exposed?
Barring local amendment in the latter case you do have a CEE and you are required to connect to it at least in [2011].

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is this a hydromassage tub? If so then just run the 12/2 and be done with it

 

[tom baker]

You'll need to bond the pump motor to the metal spout and drain with a solid #8 copper.
I recommend you review the appropriate code section in Article 690

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You'll need to bond the pump motor to the metal spout and drain with a solid #8 copper.
I recommend you review the appropriate code section in Article 690

Article 680.74--- I don't agree that bonding is necesaary unless the piping is a metal piping system. It does not make sense to bond the spout

 

[infinity]

Article 680.74--- I don't agree that bonding is necesaary unless the piping is a metal piping system. It does not make sense to bond the spout

Not required even if the tub is fed by metal piping systems. This was clarified in the 2104 NEC.

680.74 Bonding. Both metal piping systems and grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be
bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, in-
sulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The
bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the
circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose.
The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected
to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG
or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for
equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bath-
tub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to
any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any elec-
trode. The 8AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall
be long enough to terminate on a replacement non-double-
insulated pump motor and shall be terminated to the equip-
ment grounding conductor of the branch circuit of the motor
when a double-insulated circulating pump motor is used.

 

[tom baker]

680.74 states metal parts in contact with the circulating water are bonded together with a 8 AWG solid copper conductor to the circulating pump motor.
This is a separate issue from bonding the pump supply piping which is pex

 

[Dennis Alwon]

680.74 states metal parts in contact with the circulating water are bonded together with a 8 AWG solid copper conductor to the circulating pump motor.
This is a separate issue from bonding the pump supply piping which is pex

No it states metal piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulation system. I still disagree with you.

 

[yzman720]

No it states metal piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulation system. I still disagree with you.

This is what I'm talking about no one can give me the same agreed-upon answer and I really don't know what to do here

 

[kwired]

We have a new construction home that I am installing a whirlpool tub in. I have ran a 12/2 with ground dedicated circuit that will have a gfi on the outlet that the tub will plug into. My 2 questions are:

1. The entire house is ran in pex what do I ground the motor ground lug to on the motor itself?

2. The directions say "The circuit must be a (3) wire circuit from the electrical supply panel. A grounded neutral wire and a third wire, earth ground, are essential."
Is this what I already have with the 12/2 with ground? The wording of that confuses me for some reason.

If it matters the home has no uffer ground, only 2 ground rods will be installed.

The EGC run with the branch circuit is all that is necessary for equipment grounding purposes. The lug on the motor is for bonding to other metal objects in the area, which will include metal water piping or other metal objects within reach of users of the tub and/or objects in contact with the water. It is not intended to be connected to a grounding electrode or an additional equipment grounding conductor to the supply panel - like many sometimes think.

It's purpose is to provide a point to connect "equipotential grounding" to. If the pump, water pipes, other metal items in contact with the water as well as other conductive items in reach of the user are bonded together then they are all at the same potential - making it safer for user to contact those items.

 

[infinity]

The EGC run with the branch circuit is all that is necessary for equipment grounding purposes. The lug on the motor is for bonding to other metal objects in the area, which will include metal water piping or other metal objects within reach of users of the tub and/or objects in contact with the water. It is not intended to be connected to a grounding electrode or an additional equipment grounding conductor to the supply panel - like many sometimes think.

It's purpose is to provide a point to connect "equipotential grounding" to. If the pump, water pipes, other metal items in contact with the water as well as other conductive items in reach of the user are bonded together then they are all at the same potential - making it safer for user to contact those items.

This is not a pool so none of this is required by 680.74. Only metallic parts in contact with the water circulation system require connection with a #8 AWG conductor. The metal water piping feeding the tub or metallic parts in the vicinity of the tub do not require bonding.

 

[yzman720]

This is not a pool so none of this is required by 680.74. Only metallic parts in contact with the water circulation system require connection with a #8 AWG conductor. The metal water piping feeding the tub or metallic parts in the vicinity of the tub do not require bonding.

So I am understanding everyone correctly - I should just leave the ground lug on the motor alone empty and not do anything with it and not do anything with the metal tub faucet - just plug the tub in and be done if I am interpreting correctly?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So I am understanding everyone correctly - I should just leave the ground lug on the motor alone empty and not do anything with it and not do anything with the metal tub faucet - just plug the tub in and be done if I am interpreting correctly?

Yes, but you may have to convince the inspector.

 

[kwired]

This is not a pool so none of this is required by 680.74. Only metallic parts in contact with the water circulation system require connection with a #8 AWG conductor. The metal water piping feeding the tub or metallic parts in the vicinity of the tub do not require bonding.

I should have paid closer attention and even looked things up before replying.

My main point was that the lug on the motor was not for grounding the tub or the motor, but rather is a place to bond other objects to should it be necessary or desired, if this were a swimming pool or hot tub that lug does have more items it is required to be bonded to then for a hydromassage tub.

Some tend to think they need to run a grounding conductor from that lug either back to the source or even to a grounding electrode, but that is not what it is for.

There are many installations where that lug is not used, but is there should it be needed.

 

[infinity]

So I am understanding everyone correctly - I should just leave the ground lug on the motor alone empty and not do anything with it and not do anything with the metal tub faucet - just plug the tub in and be done if I am interpreting correctly?

Yes that's it. As Dennis said you may need to convince the inspector since this is one of the more misunderstood code sections. If you compare the 2011 NEC to the 2014 you'll see a few word difference in the the first sentence, this is to clarify that both metal piping and metallic parts of the circulation system require bonding, nothing else.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes that's it. As Dennis said you may need to convince the inspector since this is one of the more misunderstood code sections. If you compare the 2011 NEC to the 2014 you'll see a few word difference in the the first sentence, this is to clarify that both metal piping and metallic parts of the circulation system require bonding, nothing else.

I totally agree with this-- remember the faucet is not part of the circulation system of the tub.

 

[pkelectrical]

680.74 Bonding. Both metal piping systems and grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be
bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, in-
sulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.

This is not a pool so none of this is required by 680.74. Only metallic parts in contact with the water circulation system require connection with a #8 AWG conductor. The metal water piping feeding the tub or metallic parts in the vicinity of the tub do not require bonding

If you compare the 2011 NEC to the 2014 you'll see a few word difference in the the first sentence, this is to clarify that both metal piping and metallic parts of the circulation system require bonding, nothing else.

I totally agree with this-- remember the faucet is not part of the circulation system of the tub

I agree that this would be difficult to convince the inspector since the wording is not clear. Seems to me like "Both metal piping systems" referrers to hot and cold pipe and "and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulation system.." is another part.

 

[infinity]

I agree that this would be difficult to convince the inspector since the wording is not clear. Seems to me like "Both metal piping systems" referrers to hot and cold pipe and "and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulation system.." is another part.

Both means the two things together in the sentence, metal piping systems and metal parts. You're reading too much into this.

 

[kwired]

I agree that this would be difficult to convince the inspector since the wording is not clear. Seems to me like "Both metal piping systems" referrers to hot and cold pipe and "and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulation system.." is another part.

Both means the two things together in the sentence, metal piping systems and metal parts. You're reading too much into this.

Rob are you talking 2011 or 2014 - you have a note saying all replies are based on 2011 - but there was wording changes to this section in 2014. FWIW here is a comment included in my 2014 E book version for that section:

"Change from 2011 NEC:Revised to clarify that only the metal piping system associated with the hydromassage bathtub is subject to the bonding requirement of this section."

I think if you look hard at what is said there, the supply faucet is not typically in contact with circulating water and is not required to be bonded - at least by this section. But a metal drain fitting - even if completely isolated from other conducive objects needs to be bonded as it is in contact with circulating water. I personally don't feel there is a problem with an isolated and non bonded drain fitting - but I also believe it is required to be bonded by the current wording.

ADD: I take some of what I said back - it just hit me that it says "grounded metal parts". So the isolated drain fitting wouldn't be grounded. But a metal drain fitting attached to additional metal drain piping could possibly be grounded and that would be subject to the bonding rules of this section.

 

[infinity]

Rob are you talking 2011 or 2014 - you have a note saying all replies are based on 2011 - but there was wording changes to this section in 2014. FWIW here is a comment included in my 2014 E book version for that section:

"Change from 2011 NEC:Revised to clarify that only the metal piping system associated with the hydromassage bathtub is subject to the bonding requirement of this section."

I think if you look hard at what is said there, the supply faucet is not typically in contact with circulating water and is not required to be bonded - at least by this section. But a metal drain fitting - even if completely isolated from other conducive objects needs to be bonded as it is in contact with circulating water. I personally don't feel there is a problem with an isolated and non bonded drain fitting - but I also believe it is required to be bonded by the current wording.

ADD: I take some of what I said back - it just hit me that it says "grounded metal parts". So the isolated drain fitting wouldn't be grounded. But a metal drain fitting attached to additional metal drain piping could possibly be grounded and that would be subject to the bonding rules of this section.

Yes, the quote is post #10 is from the 2014 as noted. If you look at the e-book comment you posted you will see that nothing has changed from earlier code versions and that the clarification was gained merely by changing a few words. Both now clearly indicates that the two things following it, metal piping system and grounded metal parts are to be taken together, not separately as some have interpreted in the past.