Whirlpool tub bond lug

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gaelectric

Senior Member
I'm trying to determine what an electrician should connect to the bonding lug on a whirpool tub motor when all of the water piping and jetting piping is plastic. My guy told me that he has been running a bonding wire back to the panel in this instance.
My understanding is the bonding lug is to bring the motor and adjacent metal piping to same potential.
 

jack horner

Banned
Location
America
gaelectric said:
I'm trying to determine what an electrician should connect to the bonding lug on a whirpool tub motor when all of the water piping and jetting piping is plastic. My guy told me that he has been running a bonding wire back to the panel in this instance.
My understanding is the bonding lug is to bring the motor and adjacent metal piping to same potential.

680.74 Bonding
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

Only metal piping systems and grounded metal parts are required to be bonded. If you don't have any of these then this will not apply to you.
 

frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
most tubs I've wired says in the instructions to run the #8 solid wire, and those tubs are all made with plastic pipe. I'd check the instalation manual of the tub.
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
most tubs I've wired says in the instructions to run the #8 solid wire, and those tubs are all made with plastic pipe. I'd check the instalation manual of the tub.

Where do the installation instructions tell you to run the #8 too? If I have no metal piping system then I don't have anything to bond together.

Again 680.74 requires "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water" to be bonded together with a #8 AWG wire. This section does not require that the #8 wire be brought to any panel of any kind.

Chris
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
M. D. said:
I would look real close at the installation instructions
check out pages 18 & 19 notice it is pvc piping yet they want , it seems 2 # 8s run and they mention the lug.

http://www.jacuzzi.com/pdf/K339.PDF

M.D. These instructions were written without knowledge. The requirement of 2 #8 bonding wires, 1 for the heater and 1 for the tub motor just shows they have no idea what they are doing. In an inground pool you only need one bonding wire and it does not have to go back to the panel. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
 

Dennis Alwon

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donselectric said:
is there any copper in the bath (sink supply) take to there
The fact is the NEC does not require a bond on the motor unless the piping system is metal. Almost all tubs are plastic. No bond is required. The idea is to bond the pump to the metal water piping if there is one.

The key words in art. 680.74 are bonded together ,not to the panel or other water pipes.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Dennis Alwon said:
M.D. These instructions were written without knowledge. The requirement of 2 #8 bonding wires, 1 for the heater and 1 for the tub motor just shows they have no idea what they are doing. In an inground pool you only need one bonding wire and it does not have to go back to the panel. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


Yup,.. that may be but,.. 110.3(b) Installation and Use ; Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

This leaves little wiggle room in my opinion,.. the use of the word "shall" indicates an action that is specifically required , regarless of the knowledge with which they were written they are to be followed.

These seem to have been written 3/06.
 

raider1

Senior Member
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Location
Logan, Utah
Dennis Alwon said:
M.D. These instructions were written without knowledge. The requirement of 2 #8 bonding wires, 1 for the heater and 1 for the tub motor just shows they have no idea what they are doing. In an inground pool you only need one bonding wire and it does not have to go back to the panel. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Well said Dennis.

I agree that there is a rampant misunderstanding of the bonding requirements of 680.74. The purpose of bonding as required in 680.74 is to equilize any potential between any metal piping system and any grounded metal equipment in direct contact with the circulating water. Not to provide a second EGC, which is what you would be doing if you ran a #8 copper wire from the motor to a panel. The motor is already grounded and bonded via the EGC that is run with the branch-circuit feeding the tub.

Chris
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
installation instructions said:
With a #8 solid copper wire, bond the heater to the house electrical panel or approved local bond. A bonding lug is
provided on the heater. With another #8 solid copper wire, bond the pump/motor to the house electrical panel or
approved local bond. A bonding lug is provided on the pump/motor.

This is not what the bonding lug on the motor is to be used for. If I did have a metal piping system then the #8 wire should be run from the motor to the piping system and used to bond the two of them together. If I don't have a metal piping system then I just leave the lug alone because there is nothing to bond together according to section 680.74.

Chris

(Editted to add that the quote comes from the installation instructions provided in the link that M.D. provided)
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Did you guys notice this part:
With a #8 solid copper wire, bond the heater to the house electrical panel or approved local bond. A bonding lug is provided on the heater.

With another #8 solid copper wire, bond the pump/motor to the house electrical panel or approved local bond. A bonding lug is provided on the pump/motor.

The heaters are typically metal:
S750.jpg

You can see the lug on the bottom left.

(EDIT ~ This is the complete unit)

Would this heater be considered a "piping system" as defined by 680.74?


In the case of the motor...aren't these motors of the double-insulated variety?
 

jhrper

Member
I haven't read the instructions for bonding these guys but I do know that I have run a #8 solid from the lug back to the panel. Maybe it is to bond the metal parts of the tub together like the fixtures or something?
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
hydro

hydro

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! M.D.,
This topic has been discussed often on the forum. Many moons ago I stated that in my inspections I had seen manufacturer's instructions that required a #8 from the bond lug (motor and/or heater) to the electrical panel. I was challenged, chastized, etc. and have been looking for the rare instruction sheet that shows this requirement. Thanks to you my hunt is over :) .
I agree that the NEC may not require this as such, but as you stated, 110.3 says "install in accordance with the instructions included in the listing a labeling". This may start a valid argument with some of the leagl eagles here, but in the UL white book, Hydrotubs (HCHX) states the equipment is listed in accordance with the installation instructions.
Again, it is not without argument, but if the unit is listed to be installed as the directions indicate, and if the directions call for such ground, then, I believe there is reasoning for the inspector to require the ground. The instructins calling for such an installation may be rare, but it might be prudent to have the means available duruing rough-in in the event it is needed at final. Since we know the requiremnt exists with some manufacturers, I don't feel out of place asking that it be grounded unless you can provide instructiosn that show the manufacturer doesn't require same.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
augie47 said:
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! M.D.,
Since we know the requiremnt exists with some manufacturers, I don't feel out of place asking that it be grounded unless you can provide instructiosn that show the manufacturer doesn't require same.


You should... This is not an NEC requirement...
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
augie47 said:
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! M.D.,

Augie it sounds to me that you are looking for something to justify what you want done rather than what the code wants. Obviously, one must do it IF the instructions call for it but I bet those instructions were done by incompetent writers that did not understand the code.

Again I say, an outdoor pool does not have to be bonded to the panel so why would an indoor hydromassage tub need it. Those instructions are wrong or someone is trying to cover their butts in a ridiculous way.
 

gaelectric

Senior Member
donselectric said:
is there any copper in the bath (sink supply) take to there

No. All of the water pipe in the house is plastic. The only metal part attached to the tub is at the underside of the faucet where the plastic piping attaches.

I will check the whirlpool instruction book. No heater on this one , just circulating pump.
 

infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
jhrper said:
I haven't read the instructions for bonding these guys but I do know that I have run a #8 solid from the lug back to the panel. Maybe it is to bond the metal parts of the tub together like the fixtures or something?


The NEC doesn't require you to do this. If an inspector is requiring it he's incorrect unless some misguided instructions say it's required.
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
code

code

again, I politely disagree,,,,
If 110.3 (B) says install accoring to instructions then at leaset with this one tub, you need to do so. I am NOT justifying doing so with every installation..only saying that (1) mfg requires it and suggesting before you box youself in a corner you best be sure that your particuliar installion dosn;t require it.
I don't require it be done unless the instructions say to do it. But before I want to let it slide, I want to see the instructions.
It's not what I want..I don't recall I've ever enforced my "wants", I only want it done if required by instructions.
 
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