Whole house surge protectors

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

alive wire

Member
Location
Phoenix, AZ US
Can you guys educate me on surge protectors, the electrical Grid in our area is extremely reliable so that may be why my opinion of them is, in most circumstances it's just snake oil
A lot of local companies make a lot of money installing them and I don't push them at all

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
I don't understand why grid reliability would be a factor. Surges come from many different sources.
 
mgookin said:
I don't understand why grid reliability would be a factor. Surges come from many different sources.
Click to expand...
Like I said educate me , I would guess Poco equipment failure and or damage, and induced voltage caused by a nearby lightning strike..... direct strike a surge protector is going to do nothing

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
alive wire said:
Like I said educate me , I would guess Poco equipment failure and or damage, and induced voltage caused by a nearby lightning strike..... direct strike a surge protector is going to do nothing

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

One education coming up!
http://www.nemasurge.org/

Great resource to understand the different types of SPD's.

What it boils down to is how much you're willing to spend to protect your interests. Do you have a $6 clock radio or a $60,000 custom sound system? What happens if that $6 clock radio does not work? Does someone miss a critical life-saving medical procedure and die?

It's all about risk/ reward. How much money are you willing to spend to mitigate risk?

SPD's do not eliminate risk; they mitigate risk. You may have the best SPD's and take a hit and suffer damage. How much damage would you have had with no SPD's? Probably much more, but how much more, we'll never know. You also may take a hit and suffer no damage.
 
JFletcher said:
Here's a few links I found; no idea if their information is accurate or not self-serving, but here ya go:

http://techomebuilder.com/emagazine...-to-know-about-whole-house-surge-protection/5

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,387874,00.html

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=61379
Click to expand...

mgookin said:
One education coming up!
http://www.nemasurge.org/

Great resource to understand the different types of SPD's.

What it boils down to is how much you're willing to spend to protect your interests. Do you have a $6 clock radio or a $60,000 custom sound system? What happens if that $6 clock radio does not work? Does someone miss a critical life-saving medical procedure and die?

It's all about risk/ reward. How much money are you willing to spend to mitigate risk?

SPD's do not eliminate risk; they mitigate risk. You may have the best SPD's and take a hit and suffer damage. How much damage would you have had with no SPD's? Probably much more, but how much more, we'll never know. You also may take a hit and suffer no damage.
Click to expand...
Guys thank you for the links I will read them in depth. mgookin I agree with your previous post 100%.
Now who believes surge protectors are oversold to Unknowing elderly people at $400 a pop to protect their $12 Walmart toaster buy a electrical technician ( doing finger quotes right now) because they work on commission
But from now on I will inquire as to what Electronics they're trying to protect

I ran into this today I guess it's stuck in my craw literally no computer she did have a TV
I felt like someone was taking advantage of a little old lady

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
alive wire said:
Guys thank you for the links I will read them in depth. mgookin I agree with your previous post 100%.
Now who believes surge protectors are oversold to Unknowing elderly people at $400 a pop to protect their $12 Walmart toaster buy a electrical technician ( doing finger quotes right now) because they work on commission
But from now on I will inquire as to what Electronics they're trying to protect

I ran into this today I guess it's stuck in my craw literally no computer she did have a TV
I felt like someone was taking advantage of a little old lady

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
There are people trying to make an easy dollar in every field.

Your location may not have as much lightning as some areas, and lightning is one of the bigger causes of surges in some places. True you will have problems if there is a direct strike, but there often is many nearby strikes that are damaging and a relatively inexpensive protective device is helpful for those.

Other causes for surges can be switching of loads, on site loads or off site loads, in particular high inductive or capacitive loads, tap changes on POCO regulation devices, higher voltage line contacting a lower voltage line - like a transmission line falling on a distribution line.
 
kwired said:
There are people trying to make an easy dollar in every field.

Your location may not have as much lightning as some areas, and lightning is one of the bigger causes of surges in some places. True you will have problems if there is a direct strike, but there often is many nearby strikes that are damaging and a relatively inexpensive protective device is helpful for those.

Other causes for surges can be switching of loads, on site loads or off site loads, in particular high inductive or capacitive loads, tap changes on POCO regulation devices, higher voltage line contacting a lower voltage line - like a transmission line falling on a distribution line.
Click to expand...

Years ago, I worked on a new home that was being replaced because the original one burnt down. After an investigation, the POCO agreed with the findings, the cause was thought to be from wind causing two primary lines to short out. Once shorted, the transformer saturated and when the wind blew the conductors back apart, the transformer surged and placed an overvoltage on the lines feeding the house. A night light turned into a fire, catching curtains on fire and from there the entire home was burnt.

It was the POCO that recommended a SPD, which we installed. About a year ago I heard the customer called my EC and said the power was out and a red light was on the SPD after the power was turned back on. So, we are assuming it worked. I don't remember from the directions, but IIRC, they only work once and are meant to be replaced, which is pretty easy.
 
K8MHZ said:
Years ago, I worked on a new home that was being replaced because the original one burnt down. After an investigation, the POCO agreed with the findings, the cause was thought to be from wind causing two primary lines to short out. Once shorted, the transformer saturated and when the wind blew the conductors back apart, the transformer surged and placed an overvoltage on the lines feeding the house. A night light turned into a fire, catching curtains on fire and from there the entire home was burnt.

It was the POCO that recommended a SPD, which we installed. About a year ago I heard the customer called my EC and said the power was out and a red light was on the SPD after the power was turned back on. So, we are assuming it worked. I don't remember from the directions, but IIRC, they only work once and are meant to be replaced, which is pretty easy.
Click to expand...
They only work once on a major surge, and only absorb what they are designed for, really high surge levels may still have some let-through so to speak.

Otherwise they are actively taking all the minor hits all the time.
 
alive wire said:
Can you guys educate me on surge protectors, the electrical Grid in our area is extremely reliable so that may be why my opinion of them is, in most circumstances it's just snake oil
A lot of local companies make a lot of money installing them and I don't push them at all
Click to expand...

i've not put one on my entire house yet, mostly due to sloth....
however, i've got four APC UPS's with everything i'd hate to get smoked
plugged into them. now that i've put all LED cans into my house,
a spike that zorched them would be a sad day, indeed.

so, i've been thinking about adding whole house protection.
can anyone suggest a model they have had good experience with?
there's an awful lot of snake oil out there, and if i have to wade thru
it, it'll get all over the monitor and keyboard.....

suggestions, anyone?
 
kwired said:
They only work once on a major surge, and only absorb what they are designed for, really high surge levels may still have some let-through so to speak.

Otherwise they are actively taking all the minor hits all the time.
Click to expand...

I still have a hard time understanding how they work, at least this type.

They are connected to the bus with about a #12 conductor. The instructions are very clear that it is to be on the top, closest to the main. The POCO dude said the SPD we were going to install acts like a crow bar circuit and trips the main when a surge is detected. Just a regular old main, not a shunt breaker. In the process, the SPD sacrifices it's life and has to be replaced when the red light comes on.

Apparently it worked. I guess those short little #12's can easily carry enough current to trip a 200 amp main and not burn up.
 
Fulthrotl said:
suggestions, anyone?
Click to expand...

ick. i got some on my monitor, already....
but it seems this language is what we should
be seeing, to protect all our stuff.

"UL 1449, class 1, grade A, mode 1 protection with UL 1283 power filtering."

based on pricing of stuff with this language, it's apparent that the
APC stuff from fry's electronics is going to come up a quart low.... :huh:

crap. i just finished reading a paper from a fellow who
lost his wide carriage printer from a utility misadventure
his big box UPS didn't contain... and i'm sitting here
looking at my wide carriage printer being protected by
the same sort of big box solution. :weeping:

anybody want a good deal on a slightly used bad deal?
 
Fulthrotl said:
ick. i got some on my monitor, already....
but it seems this language is what we should
be seeing, to protect all our stuff.

"UL 1449, class 1, grade A, mode 1 protection with UL 1283 power filtering."

based on pricing of stuff with this language, it's apparent that the
APC stuff from fry's electronics is going to come up a quart low.... :huh:

crap. i just finished reading a paper from a fellow who
lost his wide carriage printer from a utility misadventure
his big box UPS didn't contain... and i'm sitting here
looking at my wide carriage printer being protected by
the same sort of big box solution. :weeping:

anybody want a good deal on a slightly used bad deal?
Click to expand...

How does a UPS protect from surges? There is a direct connection from the receptacle in the UPS to the cord via relay which doesn't open until a low voltage is sensed.

Your basic APC UPS is not an isolated conversion device, like some people think.

I have torn a couple apart to see how they work. They are not AC -> DC -> AC.
 
K8MHZ said:
How does a UPS protect from surges? There is a direct connection from the receptacle in the UPS to the cord via relay which doesn't open until a low voltage is sensed.

Your basic APC UPS is not an isolated conversion device, like some people think.

I have torn a couple apart to see how they work. They are not AC -> DC -> AC.
Click to expand...

Very often they have integrated surge protection.
 
You only need to know two things about SPDs
1. More is better
2. You get what you pay for
(Mike Holt)

Install a cat 2 at the service entrance to knock down the surge
Then use cat 3 at the point of use, with the building wiring impedance to reduce the surge even more. At TVs Computer, use the type with built in coax or RJ45 protection create a mini single point ground.

On the industrial side, I use a Leviton 42,000 series on the incomning 480volt, and a 32,000 series on the secondary of the lighting transformer, the transformer impedance reduces the surge. These units from Leviton have a high Joules (energy) rating, and cost about $400 each. But after starting to use them, I noted I no longer had equipment failures, on PLCs and other instruments.
Almost all appilances has microprocessors in it, and those chips have very close circuit traces that can not tolerate much overvoltage.

Lastly don't be fooled by how fast the SPD operates, look at the joules and max clamping voltage.

I have a wired in Leviton 42000 module at my house and I am adding three plug in 3500P modules for the over, demand water heater and dryer.
 
K8MHZ said:
Would that be something indicated in the labeling?

I would actually like one if I could find one that did have a SPD. The APC's I did autopsies on didn't have anything on the 120 volt side of the relay other than wires.
Click to expand...

yep... and what i've found so far, is that Mr. Bakers reference to "you get what you pay for"
holds true.

the labeling on a lot of this stuff is designed more to conceal absence of certifications than anything else.

if you want a UPS that does proper protection, 600 watt, 1,000 VA's worth of protection is about $1,200.
protection from spikes and whatnot without the UPS, can be had for $300....

so, the $300 solution, with an relatively inexpensive UPS behind it, protected, seems to be the simplest solution.
saves dumping my APC units. just put a good device ahead of it.
 
K8MHZ said:
How does a UPS protect from surges? There is a direct connection from the receptacle in the UPS to the cord via relay which doesn't open until a low voltage is sensed.
Click to expand...

Only in a dime-store UPS. The real ones have a lot in the way between in and out. (A TVSS is still a good idea upstream of the input.)

K8MHZ said:
Your basic APC UPS is not an isolated conversion device, like some people think.
I have torn a couple apart to see how they work. They are not AC -> DC -> AC.
Click to expand...

My basic UPS is line-interactive, my good ones are double-conversion. IMHO a stand-by UPS (with an offline inverter and load transfer relay) is more reliable as a doorstop or ship's ballast.
 
K8MHZ said:
I still have a hard time understanding how they work, at least this type.

They are connected to the bus with about a #12 conductor. The instructions are very clear that it is to be on the top, closest to the main. The POCO dude said the SPD we were going to install acts like a crow bar circuit and trips the main when a surge is detected. Just a regular old main, not a shunt breaker. In the process, the SPD sacrifices it's life and has to be replaced when the red light comes on.

Apparently it worked. I guess those short little #12's can easily carry enough current to trip a 200 amp main and not burn up.
Click to expand...

The simple MOV's are only there to shunt short time transients. Say POCO switches some equipment sending a spike down the line these are your first defense within your facility. They are not intended to draw high current for long enough duration to trip a 200 amp main breaker. They possibly could draw surprisingly high current for a few milliseconds though, but the primary intention is to limit voltage by shunting incoming transients away from protected equipment. Some of the spike may still make it past them sometimes. Most do still recommend additional surge protection at equipment that may be more sensitive to transients - those hopefully catch any spike that gets past the first line.

A lot of equipment does have MOV's in the power supply, but you want to have them there as last line of defense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top