Who's responsible

[goldstar]

I had a service call at a residence with an old 100 amp service. Both the POCO and CATV company were there prior to me getting there and left the service as is and told the HO to have her service upgraded. Upon my arrival I noticed that the service drop for the CATV had melted. The HO was told that their phones and internet would not work because the amperage on the ground at the CATV drop was greater than 1 amp (I've discussed this some time ago in a previous post). When I clipped on my amp probe there was actually almost 5 amps on the ground wire. I ran a temporary new ground wire and bonded it to the ground bar at the breaker panel. At the moment it seemed to reduce the amperage at the CATV D-mark by about 2 amps. Suddenly, the freezer in the basement kicked on and all the lights went dim. A few seconds later they got real bright. I got out my meter and measured the voltage at the breaker panel. There was about 78 volts on one hot leg and about 186 volts on the other. At that point I shut the main breaker but I was too late. The over-voltage burnt up the computer, CATV box and melted the CATV wire at the D-mark.

When the POCO originally came out to the house the HO said they checked their connections at the mid-span and at the point of attachment to the house. They never cut the tag on the meter enclosure or opened it to check inside. Their position is that the equipment attached to the house is the responsibility of the HO. As far as I'm concerned, by not inspecting the inside of the meter enclosure and leaving the customer with a obvious and potentially dangerous situation is irresponsible on their part. If you look at the attached photo you can clearly see that the service drop neutral is detached from the neutral in the meter enclosure. I think the HO should fight this and try to get compensated from the POCO. Any thoughts ?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

If this were in VA, the homeowner is responsible for that connection. IMO, you should have found it on your first trip. You should have wondered why there was five amps on the other ground path, and you did not remedy that. Don't dig too deep, because you were the last one there, you're licensed to do what you do (Iassume) and she asked to remedy the problem and you did not.
IMO, you could be liable

 

[electricmanscott]

Here in MA the property owner owns the meter socket. It would be up to me to check that mess and by looking at it I probably would have started there.

 

[SEO]

Was the power on to the panel when you arrived mains as well?

 

[emahler]

Looks like a PSE&G meter. We have no access to them. Barrel lock and only POCO has keys. I think, IMHO, definitely POCO should have checked when they were onsite. Legally, don't have an answer.

For those of you from outside of NJ, it could take days to get someone out to open the meter pan.

Edit to add- the meter pans are also POCO supplied.

 

[goldstar]

Was the power on to the panel when you arrived mains as well?

Power was on when I got there. This condition existed before I ever touched anything.

IMO, you should have found it on your first trip.

The events that I described didn't start happening until I got there. It's obvious that the condition existed before I got there. IMHO the first line of damage prevention was the POCO. The meter enclosure was tagged (and in all fairness could have been locked for that matter) and was never opened by the POCO.

IMO, you could be liable

I don't see it that way.

If this were in VA, the homeowner is responsible for that connection.

Here also. But, how many homeowners do you know are capable of cutting the tag on the meter, have the ability and knowledge to loosen the screws and remove the old meter and then make the correction to the disconnected neutral ? IMHO, the POCO shold have removed the meter, found the problem and then disconnected her service until a qualified electrician came out to correct the problem.

 

[goldstar]

Looks like a PSE&G meter.

Actually, it's Rockland Electric Company

For those of you from outside of NJ, it could take days to get someone out to open the meter pan.

That's an under-statement:roll: It doesn't matter how many times I call I usually end up sawing off the locks on the meter enclosures.

 

[ksmith846]

Here in South Florida the Meter Can is the Home Owner's responsibility to maintain. They own it. One trick I have used to get the Power Company out quickly is to call in a line down at the address. They usually will get there within an hour.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Power was on when I got there. This condition existed before I ever touched anything.The events that I described didn't start happening until I got there. It's obvious that the condition existed before I got there. IMHO the first line of damage prevention was the POCO. The meter enclosure was tagged (and in all fairness could have been locked for that matter) and was never opened by the POCO.I don't see it that way.Here also.

But, how many homeowners do you know are capable of cutting the tag on the meter

, have the ability and knowledge to loosen the screws and remove the old meter and then make the correction to the disconnected neutral ? IMHO, the POCO shold have removed the meter, found the problem and then disconnected her service until a qualified electrician came out to correct the problem.

they don't ,,,that's why they hired him.

 

[jimport]

Can't really answer your question. Had a customer lose TVs and other stuff from the poco losing the neutral at the transformer. They said they were not responsible. That was just part of the risk of using their service.

I let the insurance company fight it for them.

 

[hillbilly]

I won't cut a meter seal unless I have a good reason.

That reason being I'm pretty sure that there is a problem in there that may cause damage to the homeowners person or property.

The OP's situation would be such a reason.

I've seen enough loose, or disconnected service neutrals to know when that snake is rearing it's ugly head.

I would cut it, and if I found the problem, I would pull the meter (if I was sure that I could do it safely).
Otherwise, I would cut the service loose at the weather head, and call the POCO to tell them what I had done.

I would then repair the problem, and call for a re-connect.
This type repair would not require a permit or inspection in this area.

There are two things that I won't leave a customer with....A safety issue...or a dark house.

Just my opinion
steve

 

[480sparky]

I'm running with the pack..... it's the HOs responsibility for maintanence of the meter socket. The only thing the POCO owns and is responsible for is the cash register.

 

[Cow]

If this were in VA, the homeowner is responsible for that connection. IMO, you should have found it on your first trip. You should have wondered why there was five amps on the other ground path, and you did not remedy that. Don't dig too deep, because you were the last one there, you're licensed to do what you do (Iassume) and she asked to remedy the problem and you did not.
IMO, you could be liable

I agree with this.

You had current flowing on the ground wire and a melted catv drop. Everything pointed to a loose neutral. If you hadn't of ran that temp. ground wire(I don't understand the point of that?) her equipment may still be working. I think blaming the POCO is just blameshifting...

You should of unhooked sensitive electronics until you discovered and corrected the problem.

 

[GUNNING]

Huh?

Huh?

Here, the POCO doesn't care what you do with the power. The meter can is the home owners responsibility. They do care if you pop there seal. They really care if you mess with there lines.
Not having a neutral and them leaving and not cutting off the power is a mistake and not their responsibility. Go figure.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

When I was still contracting I had come upon this problem a number of times. If you get a reading like that on the catv or phone grounds the odds are high that you have lost your neutral or someone in the neighborhood has and is drawing from all grounds possible. Before you try any remdies you should test voltages between all phases and neutral, amprobe test your electrodes and grounds then shut down power and redo your amprobe tests. And never trust what some else tells you without confirming it yourself.

 

[Ohmy]

Residential Voltage Problem = Neutral Check

Residential Voltage Problem = Neutral Check

In Georgia the meter is property of the power company but the home owner responsibility. We are forced to cut meter tags and locks on occausion when there is an immediate danger (this would qualify) but most of our customers are with Georgia Power which is very good at responding to calls and opening meters.

My advice to the OP is whenever you have a voltage problem whether its high, low, stray, or fluxing check the neutral first and that includes the meter and service drop. Damaged meter neutrals are common. We also find damaged service drops and connections at the house and pole.

On a management note (Since this is the contracting and estimating section of mike holt). Its a lot easier to get a diagnosis charge out of a customer when you actually find the problem then when you till them "call the poco."

 

[aline]

Pulling a meter in my area is a serious offense.
The power company has them tagged and under no circumstances are you ever to cut their tag.

I went on an emergency call in the middle of the night. There was some arcing going on in the panel and there wasn't a main breaker so I cut their tag and pulled the meter. I made the repair and reinstalled the meter.

I called the next day and told them what I had done and they would need to stop by and put a new tag on. I said I felt it was an emergency and that's why I did it.

A little while later a guy from the power company calls back. The guy blew his stack and tore into to me. He said I would be fined and they would see to it my license was taken away. He acted as if I just beat up his wife and raped him. He said if I felt it was an emergency I should have called 911. So I get to stand their and watch my house catch fire while calling 911 and waiting for someone to arrive when I could have pulled the meter and stopped the arcing.

He finally cooled down and said he would let it go this time but under no circumstances should I ever, ever, ever cut one of their tags. Even if I think the house might burn down. Call 911 instead.

I think this is a load of crap since you own and are repsonsible for maintaining and repairing the meter can and riser. The power company owns just the meter itself and nothing else. You cannot gain access to inspect, maintain and repair your own equipment without having them come out and remove their tag and meter.

I feel if they want to do it this way they should supply the meter can and riser and take responsibilty for it. Anything from the main breaker on would be the responsiblity of the customer.

 

[Power Tech]

Can't really answer your question. Had a customer lose TVs and other stuff from the poco losing the neutral at the transformer. They said they were not responsible. That was just part of the risk of using their service.

I let the insurance company fight it for them.

I love it. If we have a neutral fail, we are liable. When a neutral comes lose on there end it is an act of God (wind / rain).

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Pulling a meter in my area is a serious offense.
The power company has them tagged and under no circumstances are you ever to cut their tag.

I went on an emergency call in the middle of the night. There was some arcing going on in the panel and there wasn't a main breaker so I cut their tag and pulled the meter. I made the repair and reinstalled the meter.

I called the next day and told them what I had done and they would need to stop by and put a new tag on. I said I felt it was an emergency and that's why I did it.

A little while later a guy from the power company calls back. The guy blew his stack and tore into to me. He said I would be fined and they would see to it my license was taken away. He acted as if I just beat up his wife and raped him. He said if I felt it was an emergency I should have called 911. So I get to stand their and watch my house catch fire while calling 911 and waiting for someone to arrive when I could have pulled the meter and stopped the arcing.

He finally cooled down and said he would let it go this time but under no circumstances should I ever, ever, ever cut one of their tags. Even if I think the house might burn down. Call 911 instead.

I think this is a load of crap since you own and are repsonsible for maintaining and repairing the meter can and riser. The power company owns just the meter itself and nothing else. You cannot gain access to inspect, maintain and repair your own equipment without having them come out and remove their tag and meter.

I feel if they want to do it this way they should supply the meter can and riser and take responsibilty for it. Anything from the main breaker on would be the responsiblity of the customer.

They are not NEARLY as strict here. I cut seals anytime I need to. I went on a call last week for a lady's lights dimming. I looked in the service panel and could plainly see that the main lugs were loose and burnt. I could not pull the meter because it had a lock on it. So I called, told them what I was doing , they come out REMOVED THEIR LOCK,, walks away and says "call me when you're done. I PULLED THE METER as he walked away, removed 150 amp fuse panel, replaced with 150 amp breaker panel. Trim 8" off entrance conductors. Made all terminations, plugged in meter. Called them and told them I was done they could put their lock back on. And was back home by 3:30

 

[Ohmy]

Just depends on who you get and when you get them. I've had inspectors and POCO engineers lose it over pulling a meter and I have had plenty of inspectors and POCO engineers say "why are you bothering me with this" or my personal favorite "you've an electrician't arn't ya?" Obviously, this makes it really hard to do our job. Once, you know your inspectors and POCO engineers is helps. In big metro areas like Atlanta its a full time job keeping up with all the inspectors and engineers personal nuisances.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone on this board has every ACTUALLY been fined by a power company? I am sure everyone here has been threatened.