Whose Job: Architect or Electrician?

[DSamson]

I'm working on the following project:

Suburban San Francsico, Bay Area, custom home, 2 -story, 3 bed, 2 bath, 3400 sq. ft., detached garage.

The owner is one of my best friends.

The architect is out of Massachusetts, a pre-designed, pre-engineered basic plan, customized to site conditions, local codes, and owner's desires.

My major question is: Whose job is it to do the reflected ceiling (electrical) plan?

I'm relatively new at this. Almost all of the work I do is service upgrades and kitchen and bath remodels with no plans required. On the few whole-house remodels I've bid on, the architect always does the reflected ceiling plan.

Well, in this case, the architect has basically refused, saying it is not customary for her to do it. I've spent nearly 100 hours working on it and now we're going a second round with the City and I'm going to have to invest a lot more hours to address their questions.

I bid this job as a total contract before I knew I'd be required to do so much work on the plans. I'd like to get paid for some of this time but I don't want to be too pushy if the architect is right.

So what's your experience in residental projects of this scale? Who does the electrical plan?

Thanks,

David

 

[celtic]

So what's your experience in residental projects of this scale? Who does the electrical plan?

The architect will usually have a "general" layout of the lighting plan ...with a notation/s that:

- Verify all conditions and check all measurements on the job.
- All openings in walls, floors, etc are to be located and sized as per Mechanical Requirements, even if not shown as such on the Structural and Architectual drawings

A Mechanical firm would do the lighting, taking into account obstacles such as duct work and DWV lines.

Does your plan have language such as this:
- All circuits to #12 minimum
- No more than 6 outlets per circuit

Does your plan show the actual wiring from outlet to outlet to home?

 

[stickboy1375]

The owner is one of my best friends.

I'd like to get paid for some of this time but I don't want to be too pushy if the architect is right.

You won't make any money working for friends/family anyhow...

So what's your experience in residental projects of this scale? Who does the electrical plan?

Depends on the job, sometimes we're givin a print, which hardly last very long, but most times we just do a walkthru with the owner...

 

[e57]

Take a peek at some of my recent threads - lack of responsibility in design is an epidemic it seems. Firstly, you don't need a stamp from AIA it seems to DBA with a Business License as what I refer to as "Cartoonist" in this town! Unfortunately, the Market is flooded with them! And if you do get "Licensed" from the State - I hear it is a 6 hour oral exam.... And from what I can tell they cover neither the NEC, or part 6 of Title 24 in it. For that matter basic lighting design or common sense. Sound bitter - you bet!

Big question - Where is the GC in all of this?

So are you saying they did no RCP or E sheets at all? Or they have you doing all their field research for them?

And when you say "Second round with the City", I assume it has not made it past Planning as of yet? What did you bid from?

First look in your General and/or Electrical notes for any wording about you the contractor complying with codes, and determine what your responsibilies are vs. your contract with your friend. If you bid what was on the "sheets", tell him firmly that there will be serious change orders if the sheets do not relect minimum code requirements. Now - if this is a "Friend" - tell them they are getting ripped off for the design work. They need to hire someone else, prefferably licensed either in this State or AIA, and familiar with this State, or both. Because at no point should you be looking are the red pen on those plans at the City level IMO. At that level you should have no part of it until approved for construction.

If you can get out - do so! If you can't, start with some subtle RFI's, lots of them.... Then move to quoting codes to them, and requesting compliant design - if they have questions keep pointing to the code book... Explain the code to them as last resort, but refuse to design it. Only what is required all else refer to the "Design team". (And really you should not have to do even that!) If you won't do it, and this "Architech" won't either, someone will, and it sounds like it will be your friend/client. And I suggest you document details of everything, and have every decision approved in some written form.

Once more if this is a friend - ask to be let out, or to fire this firm - they are not doing thier job, and will continue not to do it all the way through the project.

 

[danickstr]

The thing that sucks about working for friends that have little to no construction experience is that they think their naivety is not the problem and you are stealing their money.

I have refused to work for friends that have not benn through the remodel/new construction "mill" of sadness and surprises, so that they have a frame of reference and thank me when their overruns are "only 30%"

 

[DSamson]

Anymore Thoughts About Architect's Responsibilities

Anymore Thoughts About Architect's Responsibilities

O.K., I appreciate hearing from everyone about not working for friends, but that's a choice I made consciously and I'm prepared to deal with all of those consequnces.

I'd really like to hear from more folks about who does the reflected ceiling (electrical) plan for a custom / semi-custom home? Like I said, I'm new at this and I need the benefit of everyone's experience to understand how things are done.

To reply to the one poster who asked what I bid originally: I sat down with the owners with an early draft of the architect's plans and we took stickers of symbols for lights, receptacles and switches and stuck the stickers on the plans. I counted them up, did a per device calculation, then I also added for the panel work and for special loads like dryer, hot tub, heated floors, oven, workshop in detached garage. From that I came up with a rough number. A number which was nearly double what the GC's regular guy said he could do it for. Of course, he never looked at the plans or talked to the owners.

And no, the Architect did not do any E sheets or RCP at all. Well, they did one sheet with the letter "E," but it is just a detailed slice of a wall section, nothing to do with electrical.

Thanks for everyone's feedback, it really is helpful.

 

[cadpoint]

And you where thinking

And you where thinking

Welcome to the World of design Build. Let the client beware.
I'm not sure from the OP if the designer was an Architect. If they are
then no, genereally they don't do RCP, either by law or by practice. They don't do engineering work, mech, plumbing, landspacing either.

An Arch. will cover themselves with code statements in specs or drawings
and imply a fan or a light over a table, and thats it.
They design it for function, fung sway and all that stuff.

It sounds like you need a good mechanical designer to tabulate your heated floor to your HVAC Requirements. Let them layout there duct right over your lighting arrangement. Then your'll have someone to point a finger at.

If you want to do this, get some onion skin paper, over lay and sketch some stuff out quickly and not worry about resetting post-it. You can use some blue painter tape and you can over lay in multi-sheets till one roughs out the design, never touching the orginal. For $8-12 @ office or drafting supply house, buy a simple "timely template", you can over lay you OH structural members and lay you lights in, place the oven, refrig, Etc ...

I frankly don't understand what the hang up on the ceiling is, besides
who has a drop ceiling in their home, standard truss sizes are being used
aren't they, I assume at least 8" wait someone didn't spec your lights, thats it, right?

You put this hat on, and in various ways others have gone this route themselves, welcome to the club.

I flat out wouldn't design my father-in-law porch cause he told me he planned to enclose it later. I felt so bad I did lay out his front porch
hip roof, price came in he used canvis...

I commend your for helping your friend, I can only hope your toast of the house party....

 

[boater bill]

The architects I work for all have an idea what they would like to see for a RCP but ask me to do the drawings and final design, unless there is an interior desecrator invloved. If you are required to have a RCP for permits then the design professional is to provide them, for a fee of course. We show all ofthe fisxtures, fans supply air grills, diffusers etc as a background drawing to coordinate all of the trades even on residential. Of course the resi we get involved with are big to huge.

Good luck and if you have to do a RCP, get paid for it!!!!!
Otherwise bury the costs in your construction bid.

 

[ITO]

This sort of thing happens a lot, even on bigger jobs. Either the design is not complete, the designers just don’t know how to do it or there are conflicting notes.

Luckily the building industry has come up with a great solution… The Submittal!

Trying to get someone to do their job and generate a document that they either don’t want to do, or don’t know how to do is like giving your teenage kids a chores list then leaving them home alone all day to do it. It may or may not happen and if it does it wont be like you think it should.

However the funny thing about some people is that while it can be hard to get them to start a project, it is very easy to get them to grade your work. Give them your document and a red pen and they will mark-up everything you did wrong so fast it will shock you and you will have your design document complete with their comments.

Get a copy of the plans and draw in your lighting layout, to how you think it should be. Then submit it as a shop drawing to the architect for approval. This will get you completely off the hook as far as design goes because he will have to approve whatever you do before you do it.

Don’t start the work until he reviews your submittals with a notation indicating approval (they have stamps for this), and if he refuses then get the owner to sign off on it (actually sign the plan page). Politely yet firmly hold your ground; you should not have to do work that is subject to design approval after it is installed, unless you are working for T&M.

 

[e57]

Sorry been thinking of this all morning while I was working...

I sat down with the owners with an early draft of the architect's plans and we took stickers of symbols for lights, receptacles and switches and stuck the stickers on the plans.

"Design by Colorforms"