Why are some Spa's requiring two GFCI breakers?

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tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Greetings all this spa is one I see occasionally that requires two 2 pole GFCI breakers a 2P 20 and a 2P 30.
I am wondering why 2 GFCI breakers instead of one 50A GFCI in the main panel and two regular two pole breakers in the spa panel?
It seems more hazardous to have one spa gfci trip and not the other.
And yes I know 110.3(B) will require it to be wired this way just looking for an explanation.

Spa_nameplate-s.jpg
 
sorry for the piggy back, would a GE or SqD be the only acceptable breakers as per manufacturers directions?
 
Maybe it's so the manufacturer doesn't have to contend with any 50-amp terminals or conductors.

Or, so the overload protection of each section is the "responsibility" of the field-installed breakers.

I would think any style of breaker compatible with the make of the sub-panel should be acceptable.
 
480sparky said:
One circuit for pump and controls, one circuit for heater.
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I am asking why the need for two separate GFCI's.
I think the 50A feeder breaker should be a GFCI and the 20 and 30 normal breakers.
ActionDave said:
Why? GFCI senses fault, GFCI trips and the fault is cleared. Where is the extra hazard?
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I can think of a few extra hazards:
The delay between tripps would be enough to start a fire ?

fire.jpg
I would think its safer to turn the entire spa off if any part of it has a 5ma to ground fault.

Say the malfunction was a melted heater contact in the control panel circuit board.
The 20A GFCI for the control panel and pump now trips.
The toxic gas from the melting plastic damages the equipment grounding on the circuit board.
The damaged ECG is now say 500 ohms not enough for the second circuit to trip?
Or
The control panel relay has shorted the heater on (30A GFCI) and the 30A circuit has now energized the class 2 control wiring.
melted.jpg-smaller.jpg
Current is still L-L and no ground fault.
Heater is now stuck on until it melts down all the pvc around it taking a much longer time to trip.


Also just the cost of two GFCI breakers when only one can do the job.
 
If you think two GFCI breakers are a safety issue, contact the manufacturer and have them change their listing as well as instructions. I'm sure they're more than willing to do that. :love:
 
I have a 50A GFCI on mine and when the heater elements failed, it tripped. It took me time to figure out why, because the only way (on mine) to isolate the heaters was to pull fuses, which allowed the breaker to hold. Had there been separate GFCIs, I would have known immediately. Is that a problem? Not for me, but for some homeowner with no electrical background who would be reluctant to pull fuses and re-energize, it might be.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The are probably concern with distance and gfci. This insures the gfci's are closer to the tub
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I just called the manufacturer and got an engineer working from home, and they concurred with you.
The distance between the spa and the GFCI breaker is their concern.
A 50A GFCI main in the spa panel then two regular breakers is allowed.
 
LarryFine said:
Did you remember to ask about the specific breaker model numbers? :rolleyes:
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We have a pool company around here who install pool pumps that the manufacturer insists must have Siemens GFCI. The pool guy concurs as they have trouble with other brands. Crazy....I think they were Hayward pumps but I am not certain
 
LarryFine said:
Did you remember to ask about the specific breaker model numbers? :rolleyes:
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It looks like the model numbers might be for GE or Square D panels installed by the spa manufacturer as opposed to any panel provided and installed by a 'customer'.
 
LarryFine said:
Did you remember to ask about the specific breaker model numbers? :rolleyes:
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No, and he did not bring that up. I guess I should have. 😁
GE is pretty easy to get around here and their GFCI's are the same size as normal breakers which is nice in a small panel.
If only you could back feed a GFCI breaker GE makes a nice little 12 space outdoor panel, so a 2P-50 GFCI main and 2P 20 and 2P 30 would save you some $ in parts.
I got my answer, GFCI breakers are ineffective at long distances so they want that GFCI near the spa.

jim dungar said:
It looks like the model numbers might be for GE or Square D panels installed by the spa manufacturer as opposed to any panel provided and installed by a 'customer'.
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The spa panel in the diagram is the one typically 5-6 feet away as per article 680.

Thanks everyone for your replies.
 
jim dungar said:
It looks like the model numbers might be for GE or Square D panels installed by the spa manufacturer as opposed to any panel provided and installed by a 'customer'.
Click to expand...

I have seem those panel but they generally have all the relays etc in them. This is provided by the contractor as tortuga stated
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I have seem those panel but they generally have all the relays etc in them. This is provided by the contractor as tortuga stated
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But they only list a single part number for each manufacturer even though they are asking for 2 different breaker sizes.
 
jim dungar said:
But they only list a single part number for each manufacturer even though they are asking for 2 different breaker sizes.
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Maybe you can buy it thru them Idk, but it is not the one that is part of the tub itself. That is the ones I have seen... It is mounted under the tub
 
tortuga said:
I just called the manufacturer and got an engineer working from home, and they concurred with you.
The distance between the spa and the GFCI breaker is their concern.
A 50A GFCI main in the spa panel then two regular breakers is allowed.
Click to expand...

I am probably missing something but it seems like you have not solved your distance issue.
 
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