Why did this pass inspection?

[Sparky220]

I started a new job which is to wire an unfinished basement on a house that was built 5 years ago according to the home owner. The home owner said his friend installed the service for him.

This is what caught my eye. There is a meter socket / 200 amp main breaker load center outside. From that main breaker runs an aluminum SE cable ( NOT SER ) and a #4 awg copper THHN stranded wire, running along side to a sub panel about 30 feet away in the basement. There is another sub panel right next to that sub panel. The first sub panel has a 200 amp breaker, and the 2nd sub panel was a 100 amp main lug.

At the meter load center outside, the bare se aluminum conductor is landed on the neutral bus bar and #4 THHN marked with green tape is landed on the same bus.

So I take off the cover at the 200 amp sub panel and the bare aluminum is landed on the isolated neutral bar and the #4 is landed on the other bus and has the green bonding screw secured. Neutrals and grounds we all separated but the bonding jumper was still attached. I take off the 100 amp sub panel cover and it was wired correctly with SER and the neutral and grounds were separated and bonding jumper removed. And bonding screw secured on the ground bar, ok good.

The ground rods are right behind these sub panels and the # 4 bare is connected on the bus with all the grounds in the 200 amp panel. There is no ground rods where the meter is. This is where they should have been...


Why did this pass inspection with SE wire and a separate THHN wire running along with it seperatley? The grounding at the wrong panel, and the bonding jumper connected at the 200 amp sub panel?

Did The inspector just overlook this?

I removed the bonding jumper in the 200 amp panel because I knew they were both sub panels and the main means of disconnect are at the meter.


Im trying to convince him to have me rewire it with SER and move ground rods at meter.

love to hear what you guys have to say.

 

[Sparky220]

I'm sorry I meant to say I removed the jumper from bus bar to bus bar in the first sub panel. The green bonding jumper screws were installed correctly. Sorry if that confused any of you.

I will draw a diagram to make more sense

 

[jaggedben]

Yeah, I'd say you're more on top of your game than anyone who inspected that.

 

[chris1971]

I'm sorry I meant to say I removed the jumper from bus bar to bus bar in the first sub panel. The green bonding jumper screws were installed correctly. Sorry if that confused any of you.

I will draw a diagram to make more sense

What city did the work take place in Minnesota? You can pm me if you don't want to post it online.

 

[Sparky220]

With the jumper removed now, isn't this technically ok now? Besides the grounding at the wrong panel.

What is the direct hazard of having the grounding at the sub panel?

 

[GoldDigger]

Well, for one if you disconnect the subpanel feeder (or just the neutral) you have removed the ground/neutral bond which is providing a fault current path for the main panel and associated "grounded" metal surfaces.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am assuming you meant the bonding screw or jumper was still attached on the neutral in the first sub panel...

My guess is this was not inspected. I would not touch this job without cleaning it up.

 

[chris1971]

I am assuming you meant the bonding screw or jumper was still attached on the neutral in the first sub panel...

My guess is this was not inspected. I would not touch this job without cleaning it up.

I bet it was inspected. Most inspectors around here take longer to fill out the inspection sticker than do the actual inspection. The panel cover probably wasn't removed unless it's a city electrical inspector as they are a salaried employee with the city and have more time to do more detailed inspection. State electrical inspectors are paid a percentage of the total cost of the permit and that as why they aren't as detailed in their inspections.

 

[Mjkillinger]

Basically exterior panel is just a disconnect. The first "sub-panel" is main.

Basically exterior panel is just a disconnect. The first "sub-panel" is main.

They passed it as they should have as Exterior panel is serving as disconnect. Bare ground is fine in conjunction with shielded conductors, very common with Hot tub disconnect installs. The first panel in basement if grounded to earth and is a main breaker panel can then have bonded nuetral/ground. The 100 amp main lug is the only sub-panel requiring seperation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

They passed it as they should have as Exterior panel is serving as disconnect. Bare ground is fine in conjunction with shielded conductors, very common with Hot tub disconnect installs. The first panel in basement if grounded to earth and is a main breaker panel can then have bonded nuetral/ground. The 100 amp main lug is the only sub-panel requiring seperation.

IMO, you are not correct. Art 300.3(B) clearly states the conductors must be run together or comply with 300.3(B)(3). I doubt it does...

(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the
same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all
equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors
shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter,
cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless
otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1)through
(B)(4).

(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring methods
with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where
run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays,
trenches, cables, or cords, shall comply with the provisions of
300.20(B). Conductors in single-conductor Type MI cable with
a nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of
332.31. Conductors of single-conductor Type MC cable with a
nonmagnetic sheath shall comply with the provisions of 330.31,
330.116, and 300.20(B).

 

[david]

They passed it as they should have as Exterior panel is serving as disconnect. Bare ground is fine in conjunction with shielded conductors, very common with Hot tub disconnect installs. The first panel in basement if grounded to earth and is a main breaker panel can then have bonded nuetral/ground. The 100 amp main lug is the only sub-panel requiring seperation.

How is a bare grounded conductor (neutral) fine in the " sub panel " . How would you prevent a bare neutral from making contact with the panel board enclosure that is bonded to the equipment ground bus.

If your thinking that it would be OK in a non- metallic sheath, you have un- sheath the neutral in the panel

 

[packersparky]

They passed it as they should have as Exterior panel is serving as disconnect. Bare ground is fine in conjunction with shielded conductors, very common with Hot tub disconnect installs. The first panel in basement if grounded to earth and is a main breaker panel can then have bonded nuetral/ground. The 100 amp main lug is the only sub-panel requiring seperation.

The service disconnect and overcurrent device are outside. The neutral and equipment ground cannot be connected together after the service disconnecting means. See 250.24(A)(5). I also agree with Dennis that it is a violation of 300.3 also.

 

[JFletcher]

I was going to ask the OP for a pic then saw this topic is 8 months old. Mjkillinger, welcome to the forum. I have to disagree with your typical hot tub install scenario, and I presume you meant "insulated conductors", not "shielded".