Why is Times Square still lit?

[mbrooke]

I'm researching (piecing together) last weeks outage- and confused by this. The Times Square network seems to have remained energized, yet its fed by the West 50th? :? West 50th also feeds Hudson, but Hudson looked dark to me.

Hear is an example at 10:16:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOAElvuY1sI

 

[ron]

Maybe some of them are on generator?

These pictures seems to have both sides of the street dark.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ow-eerie-city-during-power-outage/1732215001/

I understood the East / West demarcation was between 5th and 6th Ave.

 

[mbrooke]

Maybe some of them are on generator?

These pictures seems to have both sides of the street dark.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ow-eerie-city-during-power-outage/1732215001/

I understood the East / West demarcation was between 5th and 6th Ave.

Maybe- but it doesn't look like it in the videos I saw. All the buildings, shops and billboards have power east of Broadway.


The demarcation is at 5th avenue- at least for the Plaza and Rockefeller center networks which did go dark.

 

[Tony S]

If you look at a comparison, London’s Leicester Square is on a rather arcane 6.6kV network. The area is ringed by a sort of modern 11kV network. The 6.6kV & 11kV networks are fed from various primary substations on the inner London super grid.
These two MV networks overlap. One building looses supply but the next building the supply is still on.

 

[romex jockey]

I'll wager another pres conference with ConEd & Mayor De blahblah will be along soon to 'splain it all..... :lol:~RJ~

 

[hbiss]

Another outage in Brooklyn. Con Ed cut power to other areas to prevent cascading. Now they want to dump Con Ed and replace them with city workers. That will be so much better.

If they do that what happens to Con Ed in Westchester? We have nothing to do with the City and like it that way.

-Hal

 

[romex jockey]

I'm under the impression ABB has a lot of explaining to do

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

If you look at a comparison, London’s Leicester Square is on a rather arcane 6.6kV network. The area is ringed by a sort of modern 11kV network. The 6.6kV & 11kV networks are fed from various primary substations on the inner London super grid.
These two MV networks overlap. One building looses supply but the next building the supply is still on.

Are the 240/415 volt secondaries in parallel? Network protectors?

One disadvantage of a network is that if you loose more then a few MV cables you have to shut down the whole thing. I hear networks are less common in Europe.

Another outage in Brooklyn. Con Ed cut power to other areas to prevent cascading. Now they want to dump Con Ed and replace them with city workers. That will be so much better.

If they do that what happens to Con Ed in Westchester? We have nothing to do with the City and like it that way.

-Hal

I think its just an empty threat. It will take years though to pull off, by that time it will be long forgotten.

 

[mbrooke]

I'm under the impression ABB has a lot of explaining to do

~RJ~

It always plays out on the global stage, for all to see.

This is why I trust SEL and hard copper :happyyes:

 

[Tony S]

Are the 240/415 volt secondaries in parallel? Network protectors?

One disadvantage of a network is that if you loose more then a few MV cables you have to shut down the whole thing. I hear networks are less common in Europe.

Most network transformers will run at 125% summer or 150% winter so the system is fairly robust.

Paralleled transformers are avoided as far as possible but occasionally it has to be.
One system I worked on had two 500kVA transformers run permanently paralleled on the LV side. To add to the confusion two 750kVA transformers could be switched in on the LV side of the system. It took me nearly a year to sort the mess out.

 

[mbrooke]

Most network transformers will run at 125% summer or 150% winter so the system is fairly robust.

Paralleled transformers are avoided as far as possible but occasionally it has to be.
One system I worked on had two 500kVA transformers run permanently paralleled on the LV side. To add to the confusion two 750kVA transformers could be switched in on the LV side of the system. It took me nearly a year to sort the mess out.

In NY all the networks are run with the secondaries in parallel. Literally hundreds 500kva transformers running in parallel. The fault current is beyond words obscene.

Less common in Europe it seems.

 

[Tony S]

I would very much doubt that multiple transformers are permanently run in parallel because, as you say, the fault currents. Neutrals are however are usually permanently connected. Underground link boxes are used to enable isolating or diverting supplies.

 

[romex jockey]

IEC 61850 is somehow involved.....

https://www.ase-systems.com/ase61850-testset-client/

how 'global' is this?:huh:

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

I would very much doubt that multiple transformers are permanently run in parallel because, as you say, the fault currents. Neutrals are however are usually permanently connected. Underground link boxes are used to enable isolating or diverting supplies.

From your experience I would understand why would think that. But come reality, imagine 860 of them in parallel.

Google "secondary network"

http://engineering.nyu.edu/power/si...ation of Very Large Distribution Networks.pdf

 

[mbrooke]

I would very much doubt that multiple transformers are permanently run in parallel because, as you say, the fault currents. Neutrals are however are usually permanently connected. Underground link boxes are used to enable isolating or diverting supplies.

An example of the fault current for a spot network- it does get that high and sometimes higher:


https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/e...y-network-arc-flash-case-study-wp024002en.pdf

 

[mbrooke]

IEC 61850 is somehow involved.....

https://www.ase-systems.com/ase61850-testset-client/

how 'global' is this?:huh:

~RJ~

IEC-61850 is used all over the world. Its a communications protocol between control/protection devices. Most common application is where fiber optics take the place of copper...

 

[ron]

An example of the fault current for a spot network- it does get that high and sometimes higher:
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/e...y-network-arc-flash-case-study-wp024002en.pdf

The joke in NYC is that Con Ed has the same piece of paper that they photocopy and send out every time a request for available fault current is received, and it says 200,000A. Now with word processors and email, the carbon copies look cleaner.

 

[mbrooke]

The joke in NYC is that Con Ed has the same piece of paper that they photocopy and send out every time a request for available fault current is received, and it says 200,000A. Now with word processors and email, the carbon copies look cleaner.

200,000 isn't far off to be honest.


For a while I've debated of Con Ed should continue using secondary networks.

 

[brantmacga]

In NY all the networks are run with the secondaries in parallel. Literally hundreds 500kva transformers running in parallel. The fault current is beyond words obscene.

Less common in Europe it seems.

Downtown Jacksonville, FL is setup this way also. There’s a manhole on every corner with terminal blocks parallel fed from each direction from underground vaults.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mbrooke]

Downtown Jacksonville, FL is setup this way also. There’s a manhole on every corner with terminal blocks parallel fed from each direction from underground vaults.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup- typical network setup.

You can loose any MV feed or transformer and not have an outage. Superior voltage regulation to.


Large buildings will tap directly from the MV feeders and have "spot networks" in the mechanical floors or pent house.