wire and pipe

[elec-student]

i was wondering if i could put a nm cable connecter at the end of a 3/4inch pipe to run wire to a box. the reason i want to know is becasue i have to run it in a tite spot and the pipe would not fit. should i find a new way to run it or am i able to do this?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: wire and pipe

I do not know of a listed connector for EMT to NM transition. This also violates the mechanical continuity requirement for COMPLETE raceway installations. 300.12 of 2002 NEC.

 

[mikeackley]

Re: wire and pipe

elect-student:

I'm going to take a different position on this matter. NM cable can be run in a short section of EMT to provide protection from physical damage, 334.15(B). Now we have had heated debates here on this forum as to what constitutes a short section [not defined by NEC]. In the end, your AHJ will make the final determination. My guess is, keep it under 4 or 5 feet, call for inspection, and chances are you'll be OK.

Here's a picture of a common connector used, posted by iwire last month.

 

[iwire]

Re: wire and pipe

Asking your inspector or AHJ is a good idea, I have never had any trouble doing it in my area, but that in itself does not mean it is correct.

I did post that picture of a connector we use but it is not "listed" for NM. It is listed for AC cable which usually means it would have a stop inside to hold back the antishort bushing, I have not seen one with a stop in it for a long time so the design is identical to a two screw die cast NM conector.

Here is a link to the other thread on this subject.
Topic: NM cable in EMT

I do not see the word "short" in 334.15(B) the only reference to length is 6" minimum above a floor when passing through a floor.

[ April 08, 2003, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[bphgravity]

Re: wire and pipe

the problem is not the AHJ or what we want the code to say whether we like it or not. The problem is lawyers and insurance adjusters that will pick apart any installation that may be in the slightest in the gray area of the code. This is the code that doesn't actually say it can be done but also doesn't say it can't be done. I don't think it is a good idea to make assumtions of code intent or rely on the AHJ inspections. AHJ's aren't held accountable, the installer is. If you can do it another way, then why not?

 

[roger deas]

Re: wire and pipe

Bryan,

This is the code that doesn't actually say it can be done but also doesn't say it can't be done. I don't think it is a good idea to make assumtions of code intent or rely on the AHJ inspections

not trying to be argumentitive, but how can those two sentences be in the same paragraph?

AHJ's aren't held accountable, the installer is.

This isn't necessarily true.

Roger

 

[mikeackley]

Re: wire and pipe

Bob.

FYI -- Here's one from Arlington (EMT to NM connector) that is listed, at least that's what they claim.

http://www.aifittings.com/c_3.htm#8600

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: wire and pipe

Originally posted by mikeackley:
Bob.

FYI -- Here's one from Arlington (EMT to NM connector) that is listed, at least that's what they claim.


[ April 08, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[bphgravity]

Re: wire and pipe

An inspector has to be found as extremely and purposefully neglegent to be indited for a crime. Electricans can be named in a suit if the slightest doubt exists. My point is that just because the local inspector says its okay, it doesn't mean this is you way out of responsibility for a non-compliant job. If in any doubt, why do it? There are only a dozen other wiring methods that could be used for this installation, so why try to "beat" the code and hope that it doesn't come back to haunt you in the future?

 

[roger]

Re: wire and pipe

Bryan, why would you think this may be trying to "beat" the code? You admitted that the code doesn't say it can or can't be done. So with this said, if you adhere to all other wiring methods that might pertain, and do it in a workman like manner, this would by no means be wrong or an effort to "beat" the code.

If the NEC had to address every item as to whether it can or can't be used or done, we would need a trailer to carry it with us.

Just because the NEC prefers to have listed items used, are you going to look high and wide for listed and approved screws to mount your boxes or supports? The NEC doesn't say what types can or can't be used.

The bottom line is, if it is done in a effort to be safe, and the wiring methods used, are in compliance as far as what is specifically "shall or shall not" then we have met the intent.

So, if we are called as an expert witness in a suit, we would evaluate what has be done, then apply the NEC and common sense to our testimony.

Roger

 

[bphgravity]

Re: wire and pipe

Roger, my posts are only my opinion. I follow the philosophy that if the code doesn't say I can, then, I don't. You may come from the philosophy that the code has to tell you can't before you don't. Have you ever been to a trial and seen and heard how a lawyer makes an electrican look like a lier and a fool? Unless it is in print, they are going to hold you accountable and ask you why you feel you are allowed to make up your own allowances when the code does not specifically allow it. Again, just my opinion.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: wire and pipe

P.S. The code does not "prefer" listed materials, it requires them. And yes, I do not use wooden plugs to hang equipment on concrete walls or other non-complinat materials. I do not teach the philosophy of whatever is the easiest way as being the best way. I am certainly not concerned with how many pages the NEC contains either.

 

[iwire]

Re: wire and pipe

"This code is not intended as a design specification nor an instruction manual for untrained persons"

The code does not tell us how to do each and every task.

 

[roger]

Re: wire and pipe

Bryan, please tell me where the NEC requires all listed materials.

A lawyer is going to make anybody look like a lier and a fool, that's his job. This is why the defense would use expert witnesses like you or me. Of course this could also be the case if the prosecution needed proof of negligence.

Where did wooden plugs or the easiest way get in to this?

I for one think the NEC is big enough.

Roger

 

[bphgravity]

Re: wire and pipe

That is the exact legal "disclaimer" that frees every person except for the person who does the work or supervises someone else doing it. This is why I will not assume or suggest that something is compliant when the NEC doesn't specifically say it is. I have stated in other similar posts that I particularly don't see all that great of a problem with this type of installation, but I still feel it is not compliant by at least two sections of the code.

 

[mikeackley]

Re: wire and pipe

Hey Roger, maybe you can help me out here. I've been searching for a Listed "bored hole". Actually, I could use a box of Listed "notches" too.....got any catalogs I can borrow???

 

[roger]

Re: wire and pipe

Hey Mike, can't help you out with "bored holes or notches,(sorry) but I think I can help if you need any listed back fill.

Roger

[ April 08, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[mikeackley]

Re: wire and pipe

Roger: Fantastic! If I find them holes and notches, I get some extra boxes so we can swap. Logging off now as I got a hot tip on Listed attic running boards.

[ April 08, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: mikeackley ]

 

[mikeackley]

Re: wire and pipe

Ronald:
Back to that cat. # 8600 EMT to NM coupler from Arlington, UL Listing # E60812-- Not that I think this is terribly important but I think that coupler is listed for NM.

I found Arlington's Listing in the UL database, and down towards the bottom of the last page it reads: "Couplers;...EMT to nonmetallic sheathed cable, Cat. No. 8600;"

Take a look...what do you think?

UL Listing for Arlington cat. 8600