Wire size calculation/voltage drop

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dalton1976

Member
Location
Colorado
So my question is about wire size and voltage drop for an upcoming project. I will be feeding a a machine that on the print is calculated to have a Imax=486A. It is close to 700 feet away from the location of the fused disconnect. Will 2 parallel runs of 250 kcmil 3 conductor be ok? It will be ran half way in a cable tray and the other half in conduit.

So it’s 400 volt (European equipment) 500 amp, 700’ in length with two parallel runs of 3 conductor w/ground, this machine is not a continuous load. Any advice would be appreciated, thank you.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Any motors involved ??
If I did the math right Rough figures you will loose about 15 volts or 4%. Using 350s you would loose about 11 volts (3%).
 

Dalton1976

Member
Location
Colorado
Yes there are 2 larger motors and several small motors that direct heat for a curing process. They do not run continually, maybe for 3 hrs at a time every 24 hrs. I don’t have the nameplate information available at this time but they are all actually kinds small.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
They do not run continually, maybe for 3 hrs at a time every 24 hrs.
That makes them, by definition, "continuous loads." But motors are treated differently than continuous loads (i.e., +25% for the largest, as opposed to +25% for the entire load).

I agree with Gus's math. I will add that a large motor starting that far from the source could increase the voltage drop to the point that the motor might stall. If the motors have VFDs or soft start controllers, this should not be a factor. Otherwise, I would suggest using a larger wire than 250 MCM.

Welcome to the forum.

 

SteveO NE

Member
Location
Northeast
Occupation
Engineer
Yes, Charlie B makes a good point...choice of wording is all the difference in the world when intrepting a system. The code defines a 3 hour load as continuous so the reason that's worth stating is just to make sure you are considering equipment based on continuous load when applicable but motors are a different world.

With that I'm not sure I'd agree with the 350kcmil without saying that you need to look at the specs of your motor in more detail because I don't necessarily agree that this solves your problem or if you even have a problem, though likely you do.

Obviously sizing larger yields less losses and a more efficient use of power but the only thing I can think of that gives us guidance in the NEC would be Article 695 referring to fire pumps - I would use that if the motor didn't give me a clearer indication of minimum startup voltage. Considering I would assume this is on the "safe" side of motor design I would think if you comply with that you are well within a factor of safety unless your motor says otherwise. I believe Art. 695 calls for 5% VD or less on 115% of full load amps (FLA) and 15% on starting. That's actually pretty hard to achieve at your distance so hopefully you have some better specs available.

If you consider a 10x inrush (many motors are more so consider that when considering my calcs below, some motors might be less too) with 2x250kcmil of copper (material wasn't specified before but that what I assumed you are planning to use) you are at 42% v drop and 4.8% on FLA. So yes I'd consider using larger conductor but that depends on what your motor needs. Some motors can run at 50% voltage on startup. Keep in mind this depends on what load is connected to your motor during started up, this works similar to a soft start in that you are reducing your startup torque, in this case to about 32% of full voltage startup torque (may be labeled as pull out torque or max torque) which if, for example, your motor is designed for 150% would leave you with 49% of normal operating torque - if you don't have any load connected until after the motor is in a steady state, maybe that is OK, maybe it isn't...again check the specs. Changing that the 15% VD would give you 72% of max torque and 108% of normal.

If you are sticking to no larger than 500kcmil CU then you'd need 3 runs of 500 CU to get you close to that 15% (it would give you 15.7%).

One question, what is the service voltage? I see you are from the USA and not Europe so is it 480V? If you are at 480v I'd presume you are using a transformer to change from 480v to 400v? If so, you should transform it by the motor if you have the space and means to do so. That being the case you would have a 16% drop using only 2 runs instead of 3...saves you an entire run for a small increase in VD.

General rule of thumb I am using with Vdrop is at least double the required ampacity of conductor for every 400ft (total conductor feet of the entire system end to end including intermediate devices, sub panels to the main panel, ect.). In my typical line of work I have to keep things less than 2% total system.
 
Last edited:

broadgage

Senior Member
Location
London, England
Since 400 volts is not a standard or common voltage in the USA, I presume that a transformer will be needed.
If stepping down from 480 volts, then a little wiggle room should be available by selecting the transformer tappings to give not 400 volts, but say 420 volts or 440 volts off load.

Placing the transformer near the load will help a little since the voltage drop will be a bit less at 480 volts than at 400 volts.

Alternatively, it might be worth taking an MV supply to a transformer near the load.

Hopefully someone has verified that the different frequency will be acceptable ? Europe is 50 cycles.
 

Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician Semi-retired
Also, since there are two large motors plus several smaller ones as part of the load, do they all start at the same time? If not, that will reduce your starting VD.

If they all start at pretty much the same time, I would consider if I could put a delay timer on one of them.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
And finally, with the motors involved, make sure that they are getting the correct voltage for the frequency they will be operating at. Will the motors work correctly at 60Hz? Or are they being run with a VFD? If they are run with a VFD, will the VFD tolerate a 480V input?

-Jon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top