Wire Terminal Temp Ratings

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steris

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Hi All - I have a follow-up question to one posted here: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=148516

The question is basically this: If you run 90*C THHN wire and derate it as needed, why is it OK to wire it into a 75*C terminal? If the wire heats up to 90*C under it's allowable load, doesn't that surpass the temp rating of the terminals? This was tangetially addressed in the above posted thread but I'm still not understanding why this is OK. Where is the limit to the "terminals will take care of themselves" arguement?

Thanks for the help!
 
I am posting a copy of charlieb's post from the other thread. I thought it addressed it rather well.

charlieb:
Let?s start with some basics. I apologize if some of this is already ?old news? to you, but I need to start somewhere.

The temperature that a wire will reach depends mostly on two things. One is the resistance of the wire. That is a function of the size of the wire. If you put the same current through two wires of different sizes, the larger wire (with its lower resistance) will not get as hot as the smaller wire. The other key factor is the conditions that surround the wire. The ampacity tables are based on one value. If the surrounding temperature is higher, then the same wire with the same current will reach an overall higher temperature. That is why there are derating factors for ambient temperatures above 30C.

With that as a start, I will now say that I think you are looking at the tables from the wrong perspective. The three columns are not about how hot a wire will get at the posted current values. They are saying that a wire with one type of insulation (e.g., TW) can sit in a 30C ambient area, can take the current that is shown for that size wire (e.g., 55 amps for #6 copper), and it won?t get hotter than 60C. The name of the insulation (again, we are using TW for now), and the fact that that name appears at the top of the 60C column, tells us that that wire can handle an overall temperature of 60C, without suffering damage to its insulation. Similarly, sending 65 amps through a #6 copper wire will result in an overall temperature no higher than 75 C, and if the wire has type THW insulation it will be able to handle that current and that temperature, without suffering damage to its insulation. You can say something similar about a #6 copper wire with a current of 75 amps and with THHN insulation: it won?t get hotter than 90C, and the wire can handle that temperature without suffering damage to its insulation. That is what the columns are telling us.

However, if you do put 75 amps through a #6 copper wire with THHN insulation and in an ambient temperature of 30C, the wire?s insulation will be able to handle it, but the point at which you connect that wire to a breaker, a relay contactor, a terminal block, or a switch might not be able to take the full 75 amps without it getting too hot. Not many manufacturers have yet listed their terminations for more than 75C. That is why we generally don?t use ampacities higher than those listed in the 75C column, even if we use wire with 90C insulation.

Now I can (finally) get around to answering your question.

We can use the 90C column for derating (if, of course, we have a wire with one of the insulation systems shown at the top of that column) because the wire itself can handle the current value shown in that column. A 250 MCM wire, aluminum, with XHHW-2 insulation can handle every bit of the 230 amps shown in the table. But with an ambient of 112F, we need to reduce the current going through the wire, to prevent it from getting above the 90C that the insulation can handle. So we derate it by a factor of 0.87. (By the way, your example used 0.82, and that is not right. Look under the 90C column for an ambient of 112, and you will see 0.87.) Multiplying 0.87 times 230 gives you 200 amps. So under this set of ?conditions of use? (please look up the article 100 definition of ampacity), the ampacity of this wire is 200 amps. That is higher than the 175 you need for the load. So you can use this wire size and type. Please note that you are putting 175 amps through a wire that (using the 75C column) would have had an ampacity of 205, but in our case has a more limited ampacity of 200, you will not exceed the 75C rating of the terminations, and you will come nowhere close to the 90C rating of the wire itself.

 
Hi All - I have a follow-up question to one posted here: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=148516

The question is basically this: If you run 90*C THHN wire and derate it as needed, why is it OK to wire it into a 75*C terminal? If the wire heats up to 90*C under it's allowable load, doesn't that surpass the temp rating of the terminals? This was tangetially addressed in the above posted thread but I'm still not understanding why this is OK. Where is the limit to the "terminals will take care of themselves" arguement?

Thanks for the help!

When you go to bed tonight pull the covers up over your head and let the air around you become uncomfortable. Then poke your head above the covers, the temp. under the covers, (conduit) is not the same as the temp. when you leave the covers (conduit). The wires where already sized to handle the load its constant just the same as your body tempt. is a known or calculated value. Put three bodies under the same cover and in this example you still have enough free air circulation to be comfortable. In this example you only become uncomfortable when four or more bodies are under the cover.
In this example pretend that a different kind of Clothing (insulation) could keep you comfortable under the cover. 75 deg C. verses 90 deg C.

The heat under load a known or calculated value is not changing its applied to the insulation from the wire outward. The heat from other wires in the same conduit is applying heat to the insulation of the wire but not to the wire its ‘self (ifyou will except that as a given for this example). The concern isn’t the heat to the wire but the heat to the insulation surrounding the wire
 
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Thanks for the clarification David. A couple of followups:

1) If an aluminum terminal is rated for 75*C and 14-3 gauge wire, does that mean I can assume that the terminal can handle 75 amps (the allowable load for aluminum #3 wire @ 75*c)?
2) If the above is true, that that mean it would be OK to bring #6 THHN carrying up to 75 amps to the terminal? This may not be advisable for a bunch of reasons, but for the sake of the temperature argument, would this be ok?

Sorry to keep beating this topic but I really want to understand where the limitation is.
 
I don't understand 14/3 and then the mention of #3????

#6 is not good for 75 amps when you have 75C terminals-- It is only rated 65 amps. The wire cannot be loaded any more than the weakest link in the system.
 
Hi Dennis - Thanks for the reply. What I meant was that if an aluminum terminal (box lug) is spec'ed for 75*C and is sized to accept a maximum of 3 gauge wire then can I assume that the current rating for the terminal is the same as aluminum 3-gauge wire at 75*C? If so, then the terminal would be able to handle 75 amps without over heating.

I guess it all boils down to these two questions:
Are the ampacity ratings for 90*C wire only allowable for use to derate capacity?
Even if a terminal is able to handle 75Amps, I'm still not allowed to use the full 75 amp rating for 6 gauge THHN.
 
I don't understand 14/3 and then the mention of #3????

#6 is not good for 75 amps when you have 75C terminals-- It is only rated 65 amps. The wire cannot be loaded any more than the weakest link in the system.

he not saying 14/3 he is saying a terminal that excepts 14awg through #3 awg then he went to the # 3 awg and looked up the ampacity 75 deg Cel. table.
I have to go and get the book now and look at what he is saying

in short a #6 has can dispate more heat than a #14 can but i still need to take a look
 
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Hi Dennis - Thanks for the reply. What I meant was that if an aluminum terminal (box lug) is spec'ed for 75*C and is sized to accept a maximum of 3 gauge wire then can I assume that the current rating for the terminal is the same as aluminum 3-gauge wire at 75*C? If so, then the terminal would be able to handle 75 amps without over heating.

I guess it all boils down to these two questions:
Are the ampacity ratings for 90*C wire only allowable for use to derate capacity?
Even if a terminal is able to handle 75Amps, I'm still not allowed to use the full 75 amp rating for 6 gauge THHN.

Look back and read 110.14 if all the terminals in the circuit are listed for a higher temperature rating and the conductor type you are using does not limit the higher temp rating then you could use the 90 deg C. rating but these are limited applications and as already stated you must not exceed the weakest link in the circuit.

Years back a 50 amp range rec. had a 60 deg C. rating. If you had one and placed it in a circuit even though you used a conductor (THHN) in the circuit you still would limit the ampacity to the 60 deg. C. coulomb.

As a particle mater for the most part you will use the 90 deg C for de-rating purposes.

You are not using the table to size a wire. What you are doing is sizing conductors (wire size plus insulation (conductor properties). The terminals are not rated for the ampacity, but are rated for temperature, and other circuit properties.
The conductors are limited on the amount of current they carry to safely limit the heat they produce in a circuit.
 
David - Thanks a lot for your help. You explaination and 110.14 really cleared a lot of it up! For some reason it just wasn't "clicking" for me. Thanks again!
 
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