Wisdom on a Bid

[Chamuit]

I have a customer who asked me to bid his project. They only have a 200 amp service on the house. The bid calls for using the "existing 400 amp service" which is non-existent. I told the guy about this error. He says that the other two contractors arre going to use the 200 amp and just set a sub-panel off to the side. (There are only two empty spaces left.) I have serious mis-givings about going against what is written down. My initial remarks and ROI were tossed. ANY pros and cons would be appreciated.

From the prints.

 

[480sparky]

Bid a 400a service. If they other ECs want to fail their inspections because of the load calcs, that's their loss.

 

[cadpoint]

In both cases they used 230V in the calculations, Why... ?

240V shows up all over Annex D:

 

[Sierrasparky]

I see this deception quite often. I don't know how the EE gets away with this. The EE do this to fool the Plan checker and then place blame on the EC who bids the project. Who are they kidding!
I like how the EE states "verify the actual" Like he never looked himself.
What a crock these EE should lose their license.
If the load calcs say over a 200 then you must do so.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Bid the 400 amp service it will be much safer. If their is an existing separate meter. It will be easy. Just change it to a 400 . Set the new 200 amp panel to the other side of it. Nothing to it.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Your load calcs show that it would be illegal to hook all that into a 200 amp service. Period. Unless you can prove the load calcs. wrong,,,,you need a 400

 

[Sierrasparky]

Bid the 400 amp service it will be much safer. If their is an existing separate meter. It will be easy. Just change it to a 400 . Set the new 200 amp panel to the other side of it. Nothing to it.

I think you are missing the point from the OP. There seems to be concern because he is bidding against others. Those others are not going to install a 400 amp. The lowest gets the bid. The OP has a dillemma If he adds the 400 amp and his bid is higher he will not get the job. If he has the 400 amp as a Adder and seperate charge the OP faces " I chose the other guy because he had no contingencies.

This type of plan engineering should be punished. This was not done by mistake. It was cleverly designed to get a cheaper price than what was really required to do the job.
That is the way I see and am sticking to it.

 

[growler]

Well they ask you to field verify the panel size for one thing and they mis-spelled field so I wouldn't trust them. What to they mean by filed verify, it's alway to "field verify".

The problem is that these prints were probably submitted for review to get a permit. This load calculation has already been accepted. In reality I doubt if this load calculation is very accurate. They used the same size AC calculation for the 518 SQ ft as those for the rest of the house and that shouldn't be over a ton or ton and a half max. A new load calculation might let them slide in at just under the 200 Amps but this would have to be submitted for review. The way it is the prints show a 400 Amp existing and this is not what's there so this needs to be corrected. Either a larger service or a load calc that shows under 200.

In my opinion the paperwork should always match what's really there. If not you do have the potential for problems.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Your load calcs show that it would be illegal to hook all that into a 200 amp service. Period. Unless you can prove the load calcs. wrong,,,,you need a 400

Not so fast the EE say's it's ok and I'm sure he stamped it!

Then there was the caviet " field Verify"

I think all EE's should have to show pictures with the plans if they want to make such claims.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Not so fast the EE say's it's ok and I'm sure he stamped it!

Then there was the caviet " field Verify"

I think all EE's should have to show pictures with the plans if they want to make such claims.

The EE stamped it fore a 400,,,,it's illegal ona 200,,,,period,,,,redo the load calcs, or put in a 400

 

[iwire]

I would bid it without the service change, you will not get the job if you bid it with the service change and the others are not.

However I would exclude the heck out of my bid saying that if the inspector will not accept what is there any work to satisfy the inspector will be additional charges

Here are typical exclusions for us,

• All Utility, Telephone co., and Fire department fees and charges
• Primary cable and terminations
• Cutting/coring and patching
• Control wiring
• Motor Starters/VFD’s
• Excavation/backfill/concrete work
• Bond
• Dumpster
• Demolition (make safe only)
• Premium time or shift work
• Special temporary connections
• Flow and tamper switches
• Design Completion and Engineering

I would simply add

• 400 amp service

 

[mcclary's electrical]

On a side note,,,,this happens alot. Companies have the plans drawn to benefit them.

I had plans that showed bringing 10 new circuits into an existing 400 amp service, the plans showed their was plenty of space available. I went to look at the job and there were no places available. I bid it for a new panel,,,,,and did not get the job. The sucker who got it probably got stuck with the cost

 

[growler]

I went to look at the job and there were no places available. I bid it for a new panel,,,,,and did not get the job. The sucker who got it probably got stuck with the cost

It's a lot easier for stupid people to bid work and get it but once they get the job it's a lot harder for them to finished the work they bid. That's why a lot of work is finished by a different contractor than the one that started the project.

 

[Sierrasparky]

As I said and some concur, this practice is done to ripp off the unsuspecting EC.
Is anyone to believe that the EE can with all honesty say there is a 400 amp service there if there was not one. The EE should be liable for this. The EE is stamping a plan stating that " this is what was observed" If this is not the casae then why put on the plans " Exisitng 400 amp service"

Several years ago I went round and round with an inspector about his calcs as they were wrong. The EE left out the A/C loads. Then when he added them he removed others. This game went on for a year and three of four different sets of plans. The EE tried to tell the owner I did not know what I was talking about. The EE knew damm well what he was doing. He was trying to keep the calcs under 100 amps 3 phase. I finally got the company to allow me hire a EE to fix the plans and re-submit. This was a mess. I posted about it a while back!

Again these EE should loose their license.

 

[jumper]

I am confused? The OP says he a customer that wants a bid and has a set of prints. It is a resi app for a 400 amp service, fine. Where was it said these were EE stamped prints. The architect or someone else could have done that calc. I do not remember ever having to use an engineer for such a relativly small project.:-?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I am confused? The OP says he a customer that wants a bid and has a set of prints. It is a resi app for a 400 amp service, fine. Where was it said these were EE stamped prints. The architect or someone else could have done that calc. I do not remember ever having to use an engineer for such a relativly small project.:-?

Good point, I completely forgot this was residential. Just redo all the load calcs. yourself, and if it comes in over 2 than you know what needs to be bid, if under, set your small subpanel. You need no engineer

 

[jumper]

Good point, I completely forgot this was residential. Just redo all the load calcs. yourself, and if it comes in over 2 than you know what needs to be bid, if under, set your small subpanel. You need no engineer

That is why I do not think that these are EE stamped plans. As Cadpoint noted the person doing the calc used 230, instead of 240. This increased the total VA.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Of course the EC can change the drwaings, SO what.
Does not get rid of the dillema of the phantom 400 amp service!

 

[jumper]

Of course the EC can change the drwaings, SO what.
Does not get rid of the dillema of the phantom 400 amp service!

True, but you kept bashing some EE and I do not beleive there was one. Where did you get the idea these were EE stamped plans? Did I miss the post where this was stated?

 

[cadpoint]

Who said that the plans were performed by an EE, there plenty of plan services, that do CAD work?!!!!

There are plenty of CAD drawings done in foreign counties.

State and/or County requirements might want a load calc summary, can't you fill out one to submit on your job?

I'm sure you ask an EE every time to check your math when you have some math problems, or some submittals, since you keep them in such high regard!

Is an ROI only submitted to an Engineer what about the Architect, or only to an EE, I think not!