Working dead or dying live.....again

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torint

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This occurred in Gibraltar, Michigan April 23, 2004.
A maintenance worker on a traveling carnival from Florida died as a result of the machine not being properly locked out and tagged. Another employee didn't know that the machine was being serviced and decided to turn the machine on thus killing his co-worker. :( The last time this subject was covered, it got a lot of responses. It seems to me that it was 50% for working on live equipment and 50% against working on live equipment. Some members state the OHSHA laws against working on live equipment. I have been professionally trained and I am a qualified person that works on electrical equipment. My expertise is residential and light commercial. I do work on it live on occasion.

[ April 24, 2004, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: torint ]
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

"Live parts to which an employee might be exposed shall be put into an electrically safe work condition (disconnected, LOTO, tested, grounded) before an employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increase hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations."

Per Article 130.1 Justification for Work of the 2004 NFPA 70E. (Wording in paragraphs inserted by me.)
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Sometimes i have to work a circuit live,well not really but it`s a time saver.I have been in the field for 30 years why channge now ???????
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

OH sorry but when I question it black and ground shut 0ff power,120 that is.
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Originally posted by a.wayne3@verizon.net:
Sometimes i have to work a circuit live,well not really but it`s a time saver.I have been in the field for 30 years why channge now ???????
Click to expand...
Why? Its about setting an example and not diminishing the danger of live work to those that may not realize the extent of injury and possible death that can occur. Of the 15,000+ members of this forum, how many are going to read the above text and assume it must be okay because you have gotten away with it for 30 years?

I sincerely hope this attitude hasn't been rubbed off on apprentices and helpers that have worked around you. I am not trying to slam your character, I think you are a bright guy and you have good advice, but your statement sounds careless.

I don't swear in front of my daughter because I don't want her to do it also. I also don't do unsafe practices in front of my assoicates or others for the exact same reason. :eek:
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

This is similar to current post in safety. I finally got tired of working live. I had accepted it before both working for others and working for myself. It was always about saving someone money (99.99% anyway), and i just decided i didn't want to do it anymore. Testing and troubleshooting is not working live to me. Some stuff just has to be done hot.

Heck of a full life Bennie (if you are reading this). I smoked for 35 years and finally quit.

paul
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Congratulations Paul, On giving up cigaretts.

One thing I learned at the cancer clinic is to never adopt a color code.

The blood draw nurses wear red. The sanitary preparation nurses wear white. The IV nurses wear green for go for the chemo. The doctors wear black to say good luck, if not I won't have to change for the funeral.

After observing all the colors, did my brown jump suit fit in?
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Rich,bennie are you going to tell me that if you get a sevice call for an
arch fault tripping you can find it with a denergized circuit.come on.And to the others that come up with osha regs for PPD hot gloves etc pooh.yes 277 480 I can see it but 120 v well................You take it from there,Allen
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

I was just attempting some sick hospital humor.

I started the original Working dead or dying live thread.

I am against working live circuits when it appears a necessity for the bottom line.
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

On average, 140 electrical workers die per year from electrocution. This is the electrical construction industry alone. Of the 140, up to 30 of these are casued by 120-volt contact. That's right. Every three days, a fellow electrician is going to die.

Up to 55% of these deaths are due to contact with wiring and parts that were not deenergize before contact. That means all of these deaths were preventable.

These numbers do not include the several thousands of electricians that are injured each year from exposure to electricity. Shocks, burns, hearing loss, loss of smell, loss of vision, and other physical injuries are overwhelming in numbers. Not to mention the psychological and economical impact on the families that results. Numbers don't lie. :mad:
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

I was taught electrical safety the ?Navy way,? having served as the Electrical Officer in three nuclear powered ships. What I remember of those days I will now summarize in my own words (not the Navy words):
There is no such thing as a de-energized circuit, just as there is no such thing as an unloaded gun.
Click to expand...
What I mean by this is that we need to be constantly aware of the dangers inherent in our business, and never take for granted that ?this job is safe.?

One Navy practice that I recall is to check your voltage tester on a live circuit, then use it to verify that the circuit you will be working is de-energized, then check your voltage tester again before you start. The live circuit you check in the second step must be of the same voltage level as the circuit you will be working. I remember one case of a serious injury, very near death, due in part to a failure to follow this requirement. We later discovered that the voltage tester had been checked against a live 120 volt source, but not checked against a higher voltage source, and the tool?s higher voltage test circuits did not work. The job was to connect shore power cables to bus bars within the ship?s on-board shore power panel box. Due to a series of errors, the box was live, when the electrician tried to attach a ?safety grounding clip? between the bus bars and the ship?s hull. He had, by himself, ?verified? that the bus bars were dead, but he made the error I described above. The ground clip drew an arc that threw him back several feet. He survived, with no permanent physical injuries. But I think he sought out a different career, not as an electrician, when he was discharged from the Navy.

So here is my take on the subject:
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don?t believe that the circuit is dead, unless you check it yourself.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If someone tells you that the circuit is dead, check it yourself anyway.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even if you prove that the circuit is dead, remember that the wire next to it is live.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you leave the room for any reason, then check the circuit again before you resume work.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no ?MAY? in the following standard saying: ?The life you save WILL be your own.?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
p.s. You may feel free to substitute the phrase ?the gun is unloaded? in place of ?the circuit is dead,? in the list above.
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Charlie b, excellent post and advice, I think taking for granted a meter is working is far to widespread. I don't know how many times I've seen someone walk up, stick the leads of their wiggy on a circuit, and then jump in.

I would also add that when someone working for me goes into an equipment room to do no more than take a cover off a piece of equipment, they WILL be accompanied by another person.

Roger

[ April 25, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Charlie when I was in Machinist Mate A School, we were shown the navy training film "110 Volts-Your Deadly Shipmate" three times.
I too follow the voltage tester test as you describe. In addition I carry a Fluke AC volt pen in my pocket and use it.
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

I heard of an electrician who was killed by a 12 volt power source.
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

It seems to me that this discussion has little to do with the story posted to start the topic.

In the story presented, the worker was not working on a live circuit, but rather was working on a dead circuit. For whatever reason he did not lock out the power, and was killed when someone made the circuit live.

Working on live circuits is one thing. Working on dead circuits is another. Working on a circuit that is not live and is supposed to stay that way is yet another.

Lockouts and lockout tag procedures exist for a reason. There is no excuse for not using them.

[ April 25, 2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: racraft ]
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

I worked at a place for 5 years where a worker about 15 years earlier in the same job I had was literally cut in half because of working in heavy equipment without locking it out.

You can bet I would always lock this equipment out when I had to inspect it.

This accident was of course devastating to the family of the killed worker but also to the other worker who pushed the start button.

Bob
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

bennie ,,,make sure your super nice to the phlebotomist.....if not, they will give u a total new approach to HOT work LOL....best of luck in your treatments.........

i stopped smoking oct 25, 1990, after 25 yrs...i was up to 3 or more packs a day...

as for working hot....i would say the less you do it, the better off you and those around you will be...my 2 cents..
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

Let's not forget about bystanders... I once had a homeowner reach in to the panel and touch a live bus and asked "whats this" before I knew what was happening. Fortunatley he was not grounded and didn't feel a thing, and he felt pretty stupid when I told him it could've killed him.
I also went to inspect an old 100Amp disconnect for a realtor who reached over my shoulder to point out what the home inspector didn't like and nearly touched the lugs before I grabbed her hand.
And I'll NEVER leave any wire scraps lying around after I found a customers kid shoving them into a receptacle!
Brian
 
Re: Working dead or dying live.....again

I would like to pose a question. How many of you feel that your job is worth more than your life? My family might need me to have a job and/or career and I may do just about anything to retain my current employer, if I felt it necessary. Fact is, my life is more valuable to me than my employer and if I'm dead, I don't leave my family enough to be independantly wealthy for the rest of their lives so to choose between my current employer and my life is a no-brainer!

There are times when we need to have power applied to solve problems. It is a necessary hazard that goes with the territory. We must also be aware enough to take the necessary precautions to prevent accidents. It could be as simple as disconnecting a signal wire or turning off a PLC to avoid accidental machine startup by unsuspecting individuals.

Bob
 
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