Working Hot

[wattey]

I've been reading over these forums and I have a question to ask ...

In England in my former job on a Steel mill I often had to work Hot in order to fault find. Bare in mind I am talking about an integrated steel mill ... from Coil to Tube was one process line. The Schematics for the mill were contained in Volumes A - J for the main mill with another 3+ Volumes for additional circuits added after the line was commissioned and a further 7 Program manuals for the PLC/PC hybrid system we used on control side. Faults were seldom apparent and the integration of the system made things worse. To fault find cold would take hours, possibly days on some faults.

Most of my hot work was on 24VDC/110VAC (Control side) and 415VAC-1000VAC operating side. (Never ever ever?under any circumstance even thought about *hot work* on incommers - they were 11,000VAC)

A fault in the system was 9/10 control side (Proximity/actuator/relay/PLC/etc) but it still meant alot of hot work on 415VAC+ circuits. Pure fault finding mind you with approved meters/rated insulated tools. Of course it still meant that anything upto 1000VAC was accessible (ie you could reach in and touch it if you were of a mind to do so)

The IEE regs (English Regs) are very strict on hot work in England, spotter's, certification for the Electrician etc etc?, so its not like we let apprentices run amuck in live panels ...

How does the US Regs view hot work? Strictly taboo? Or are there strict guidelines/precautions as in England?

Thanxs for info

Shaine.

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

OSHA (Occupational Safety & Health Administration) Regulations govern hot work.

www.osha.gov

Here is a few of the standards

1926.416(a)(1)
No employer shall permit an employee to work in such proximity to any part of an electric power circuit that the employee could contact the electric power circuit in the course of work, unless the employee is protected against electric shock by deenergizing the circuit and grounding it or by guarding it effectively by insulation or other means.

1910.147 would be good to look at, it deals with what we call "Lock Out Tag Out" or LOTO.

Basically it is a formal procedure for putting a lock and tag on any device controlling energy to the equipment you are working on, electricity, air pressure, spring pressure etc.

But here is the one that really cuts into working hot.

1910.333(a)

"General." Safety-related work practices shall be employed to prevent electric shock or other injuries resulting from either direct or indirect electrical contacts, when work is performed near or on equipment or circuits which are or may be energized. The specific safety-related work practices shall be consistent with the nature and extent of the associated electrical hazards.

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.


Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.


Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.


Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.


If you do determine that it is allowed to "work hot" you will have to wear protective clothing and eye shields etc.

Exactly how much "personal protective equipment" or PPE is required depends on the fault current available where you are working.

The shortest answer is if you work hot and OSHA shows up there is a very high chance you will receive a fine.

[ January 01, 2004, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

"1910.147 would be good to look at, it deals with what we call "Lock Out Tag Out" or LOTO.

Basically it is a formal procedure for putting a lock and tag on any device controlling energy to the equipment you are working on, electricity, air pressure, spring pressure etc."

Yes we have the same rules in England about locking off when working on equipment. Additional permitting is required if the worker is a contractor or *outsider* (Ie anyone not 100% up to speed on the equipment) Multi-locks are used for contractors (requiring 2+ keys to open - 1 per person working on said equipment and 1 additional for the permit writer - usually head electrician)

My question was more in regards to fault finding hot though. Yes we lock off and power down once we find the fault. On multi-integrated systems *finding* a fault is the hardest part of the process. This is when our exceptions for hot work come into play. Its far easier to find a downed relay, Resistor, PLC I/O module etc on a live system.

I am curious as to the practices on fault finding on equipment. There is no excuse for being lazy and not locking down a system to swap out a part or make a repair.

So I guess I should be more specific and note that my inquiry is in regards to hot work for the sole purpose of fault finding. Are there exception rules for this? or is there a pure *No hot work* rule is effect?

Thanxs,
Shaine.

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

I suggest you read the regulations your self so you get an accurate view, they are available for free on line at www.osha.gov

Now that I have said that I will give you my opinion of the rules as I understand them.

NO HOT WORK.

Except for cases that are necessary for trouble shooting.

To do this hot work you must be dressed for it.

This could be a little PPE or you might look like a astronaut depending on the fault current available.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Working Hot

"NO HOT WORK"
BTW I agree.

Some exceptions.
Some hospital conditions.
When it is more hazardous to remove power.

Not an exact quote from OSHA but close enough.

Mike P.

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

Good Morning Mike, here is the words for that from OSHA.

Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.

The thing that comes to mind is if this circuit or feeder is running critical loads and a mistake happens you are now really in deep s#%*.

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Sorry to bang on about this but I'd like to be 100% clear on it ... Hot work is a big deal to me. Its dangerous and has to be fully regulated.

"Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations "

"Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment."

" Except for cases that are necessary for trouble shooting ."

Our HSA (Health&Safety Association, equal to OSHA) has basically the same text. Most of it is pretty ambiguious. The examples I cited (From my own experiance on a fully integrated Steel production line) fell under these. Hot work was deamed necessary for fault findind, Shutting down the entire system to fault find was not an option in many cases, We're talking many many Tonnes of steel (400 tonnes+ / 8 hour shift) rolling through a mill with 11,000V induction welding systems.

"infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations" was a favored quote of the management there. Most of my experiance is in heavy industry, its all I did for 11 years. Some of the equipment was installed when the Firm was still Stewarts+Lloyds (For you steel buffs out there) so we're talking in the 40's. If you've never worked on 1940's eletrical systems imagine an old frankinstine movie and your close /shudder. Other plants were state of the art only 2 years old. (The site covered about 11 square miles - big steel mill)

I'm not saying hot work was the rule ... but in a fully integrated system (infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations) it was something that we did alot of. To fault find through 15+ manuals of schematics was a no-no, It could take days. Indeed there were occasions when it took days to fault find live for some issues ... so live fault finding was not uncommon. I understand that you have alot of PPE rules, they were uncommon in England. Seldom did we wear PPE unless we were working on 11KV systems. Most of our regs were covered by screening in pannels. Screens that we of course removed to fault find.

I'm getting the impression that the safety rules over here are stricter than in England with reguards to PPE. It seems OSHA leaves in the same *get-out* clauses that our big Corps in England use though for fault finding. I will visit the OSHA site later today and read through it a little. Thanks for the information you've passed my way

Shaine.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

Just try to land a job as a service man for residential homes and tell the boss you won't work it hot.LOL

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Working Hot

Jim

Per OSHA you are NEVER allowed to work hot in a residential application.

"Just try to land a job as a service man for residential homes and tell the boss you won't work it hot.LOL"

Correct. But to me testing is different than a service change.

For those of you who know nothing of residential work, it is a common practice to work the un-fused conductors "hot" when upgrading or changing a panel or meter.

Mike P.

 

[electricman2]

Re: Working Hot

I do a lot of flourescent ballast changeouts for a large antique emporium and don't recall the last time I de-energized the circuit. Just keep your mind on what you are doing.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Working Hot

PS

My problem with this "hot" work is as follows.

1. It is normally performed by a single (alone) person.

2. Proper, if any, PPE is not worn.

3. The person performing the work, although they may be knowledgable, has NEVER received any safety training.

These are just a few. I would like to hear some additions to my list.

Mike P.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

OSHA doesn't wright my paycheck.There are some of us that don't mind working things hot and some do mind.It has nothing to do with them being a good or bad electrician.If working things hot bothers you then don't take a job where it is required.Personally i enjoy service work.Should you try to trouble shoot a new home with an ohm meter you will be there days.The choice to turn things off is up to the electrician and in situations that i deem unsafe i will indeed turn them off.I started out at 18 working on TV'S so working stuff hot was normal and getting shocked happened daily.

[ January 01, 2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Working Hot

Jim

"OSHA doesn't wright my paycheck"

No but they might take it.

I agree that they should not tell "you" what to do. It is there for anyone that you might tell what to do.

Mike P.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

exactly. I think they are trying to stop your boss from ordering you to do it HOT or your fired.In the real world your boss won't force you to do it ,and he won't fire you because you declined to work it hot.What he will do is find a LEGAL reason to fire you ,or cut your hours till you quit.New homes are being wired by INSTALLERS not electricians,they will mis splice and make some bad connections or even mis wire.Many large companies prefer installers followed up by journeymen punch out men.They can not spend all day to fix a few simple problems.The fastest way to fix is with power on.At the interview i am sure they will ask if you have a problem with working live.If you indicate you won't ,your application goes into file 13.Thats just hard real reallity.Plenty of work both commercial and residential that has no power while your working.

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

Jim your the boss right?

If one your employees was to get caught working hot no matter if you told them not to, you will be fined starting at $10,000 can you afford that?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

I see your point.In 20 plus years i have never seen OSHA.Just how do exspect to fix problems with no power.Seems like what your saying is there is no need to own a voltmeter or have an amp probe.How could we use them on dead circuits ?

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

Jim you can use your testers you just have to dress for it.

I always wear my PPE.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

I am all for well insulated shoes and tools.And would never ignore grounded items that i might come in contact with.Sometimes ideal conditions just can't be met.

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Seems like I opened a real can of worms here

I know that people work live, we all do it at times I'm sure. My question was not really if we do work live, but about when its *Legal* to do so.

Looking at the quotes I was kindly provided with, it seems that the situation here in the US is the same as in England in that live work is avoided where possible and regulated for those cases it is not possible to work on a dead circuit.

As one above poster said, It would take hours to find a fault in a home wiring system with an Ohm meter, and about 20 mins to find it when the circuit is live. Thats generally the situation in industry. Yes we know its broken, fix it and fix it fast. The most expedient way to locate a fault is on a live circuit, thats life.

I am not condoning hot work where its not required, its silly to try and make additions to a circuit or replace damaged parts live. On the other hand as we all know industry waits for no man. The key to fixing a fault is finding it .. and thats best done on a live circuit where we can see whats happening.

The biggest difference I see between the US and English regs are the PPE rules. We worked on anything upto 660V with no face guards, no gloves ... Rubber matting was required for anything over 150V and 1000V rated tools were used for everything along with approved meters (Usually one of the Fluke series) We only used PPE on HF equipment. My particular situation was that most equipment was run from 415AC 3Phase incommers through inverter systems to provide either a 415VC Frequency regulated supply, or a 660V DC supply. After the 660v DC our equipment jumped to 11,000V HF welders and Main switch room gear. HF and HV (High Frequency/High Voltage) was covered over a strict set of regs that required multiple isolations and permits and PPE.
(English Regs are split into low voltage 150< Working voltage 150-1000 and High voltage 1000+)

So the feedback I am getting is giving me a similar situation to England, Lock offs/ Isolations/Hot fault finding, but with much stricter PPE rules.

Shaine~

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

For some graphic (staged) pictures of the dangers of arc blast from voltages under 600 take a look here