Working on Deenergized Panel

[tom baker]

Take a typical 120/240 panel board with a 200 amp top fed main breaker. With the main off, the load side is dead. Does 70E consider this panel de-energized and can it be worked on with no PPE?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In my opinion, PPE is still required under those conditions. Now if you by a panel made for Canada, you don't have that problem. It is my understanding that their code requires an additional metal barrier over the line side terminations so with the breaker off and the normal deadfront cover removed there are no exposed live parts.
Don

 

[iwire]

In my opinion, PPE is still required under those conditions.

I agree assuming the line side lugs are not behind a barrier.

Now if you by a panel made for Canada, you don't have that problem. It is my understanding that their code requires an additional metal barrier over the line side terminations so with the breaker off and the normal deadfront cover removed there are no exposed live parts.

I know that to be true for residential service panels I do not know if it applies to other locations.

 

[jim dungar]

Take a typical 120/240 panel board with a 200 amp top fed main breaker. With the main off, the load side is dead. Does 70E consider this panel de-energized and can it be worked on with no PPE?

If the load bus bars are de-energized and the line is barriered against contact, then voltage rated PPE is not required. If you are within the Limited approach boundary then arc flash PPE would be required.

 

[mdshunk]

Even with the main off, if I'm fishing new cables into a 200 amp panel, there's still a great potential that I could slap a bare ground against the main's line side lugs when I'm skinning out NM cable or working with MC in front of the open panel. It is for this reason that I don't hesitate to cut the seal tag and yank the meter when I feel the need to do so.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Jim,

If the load bus bars are de-energized and the line is barriered against contact, then voltage rated PPE is not required.

That is not very common with typical US panels. How much of a barrier is required? Even on disconnects, that typically have a line side barrier, the live parts are not completely covered.
Don

 

[sparky_magoo]

Even with the main off, if I'm fishing new cables into a 200 amp panel, there's still a great potential that I could slap a bare ground against the main's line side lugs when I'm skinning out NM cable or working with MC in front of the open panel. It is for this reason that I don't hesitate to cut the seal tag and yank the meter when I feel the need to do so.

The last two times I have done this, POCO threw caniption fits at me. One lineman even said he could have me arrested for such activities.

Now I schedule disconnects. With POCO's new computerized dispatch system, I have to wait up to a month for the disconnect. Anyone working in CA. will be able to relate.

Now, when I call the POCO lineman's cell phone, He can't come out for reconnect until the order shows up in his computer. It used to be so simple.

Ugh!

 

[andinator]

Mr. shunk knows you have to do it on the down low.:roll:

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The last two times I have done this, POCO threw caniption fits at me. One lineman even said he could have me arrested for such activities.

Now I schedule disconnects. With POCO's new computerized dispatch system, I have to wait up to a month for the disconnect. Anyone working in CA. will be able to relate.

Now, when I call the POCO lineman's cell phone, He can't come out for reconnect until the order shows up in his computer. It used to be so simple.

Ugh!

There is a very simple explanation for the POCO... I saw arcs and sparks, it was an emergency.


Lets not forget about another important aspect...LOTO - LOCKOUT/TAGOUT of the disco after deengerizing. :wink:

 

[mdshunk]

The last two times I have done this, POCO threw caniption fits at me. One lineman even said he could have me arrested for such activities.

I'd tell that lineman to give it a try. You need to either steal power or tamper with the meter (change the calibration, etc.) to get in any legal hot water. The secret is getting in with a couple linemen who will keep you supplied with an allotment of seal tags, so you can just seal the thing back up. The newer AMR meters will "tattle" on you when you yank it, but realisticly, nobody even comes out to check.

 

[andinator]

Ga power seems to have a mix of locks on their meters. The little seal tags i've always cut with my dikes at the bottom and reinstall and never had a problem...and i've pulled alot of meters. The other kind...kind of hard to describe, require a special tool to unlock. Not many of these, but I haven't figured out how to defeat them. Any ideas . By the way , I always wear ppe(didn't used to, but do now).

 

[mdshunk]

The other kind...kind of hard to describe, require a special tool to unlock. Not many of these, but I haven't figured out how to defeat them.

I guess you mean the E.J. Brooks meter seal. If you're real nice to a lineman, one of these keys might fall off his truck. They fetch about 300-500 dollars each on eBay, since they're a totally different key than the more popular (and cheaper) barrel lock used by the cable companies.

 

[jim dungar]

Jim,

That is not very common with typical US panels. How much of a barrier is required? Even on disconnects, that typically have a line side barrier, the live parts are not completely covered.
Don

Don,

If a small insulating blanket was clipped around the incoming conductors and over the "open" lugs then voltage rated PPE could be removed.

Square D now sells "finger safe" barriers for their disconnects.

Of course if the work involved (i.e. using a fishtape) could enter the barrier than the work should be considered energized.

And, theoretical versus real life are often two different things. If the barriers do not exist then it is life work.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Jim,
It is my understanding that "finger safe" is just that and the live parts are still exposed and subject to contact by conductive objects. It is my opinion that unless the live parts are completly covered voltage rated PPE would be required.
Don

 

[jim dungar]

Jim,
It is my understanding that "finger safe" is just that and the live parts are still exposed and subject to contact by conductive objects. It is my opinion that unless the live parts are completly covered voltage rated PPE would be required.
Don

If the restricted approach boundary is not breached, then by definition you are not working on or near energized equipment. But, the use of tools and other conductive objects (i.e. fish tapes) must be considered when establishing the restricted approach boundary which is one reason OSHA likes to use the "movable" column which has a 10 ft distance.

Even a UL/NEMA type 1 enclosure does not ensure that a small (less than 1/8" dia) tool or rod will not contact energized parts, so what do you mean by "completely covered". And doesn't an insulating blanket in conjunction with finger safe terminals effectively provide complete coverage?

 

[kid_stevens]

I'd tell that lineman to give it a try. You need to either steal power or tamper with the meter (change the calibration, etc.) to get in any legal hot water. The secret is getting in with a couple linemen who will keep you supplied with an allotment of seal tags, so you can just seal the thing back up. The newer AMR meters will "tattle" on you when you yank it, but realisticly, nobody even comes out to check.

I cut the tag down low when I need to drop the mains for a quick repair. The charge for a meter loop permit is getting out of hand here. The next time PNM comes out they just mark it that the tag has been cut and they send a new one out sometime in the next 20 years.