working on live circuits

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boyle78

boyle78

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Location
new hampshire
I was just wondering what some thoughts were on working on live circuits. Reason I ask is due to an arc-flash class we had at work. Sad thing is that where I work, shutting things down is very inconvenient...not life threatening...but you would think it was by the reaction given to one of us electricians asking to shut down someone's computer circuit. The proper P.P.E. is a joke and it's the typical rushing game to get the work done.
Imo shutting a circuit down might be inconvenient, but so is not making it home at the end of the day. I know of some companies that have changed thier policies to include not working on live circuits...has anyone's company done the same?
 
It is forbidden by all union companys
to do so for your employer only puts your life at risk and money in your owners pocket

if you are self employed - what will those whom depend on you do when you are so badly burned you can no longer work
 
I do it far more often than needed or should.If we all banded together and said no we could win.That simply will not happen and if we push issue we will be looking for a job.No they wont fire you for that.
 
company policy is that we do not work on live power (with a few exceptions) we try to schedule a shut down at night or on weekends to minimise outages that effect customer operations.

That's the policy, reality is quite different. Sometimes for convenience sake we do live work, we shouldn't, but we do! You need to consider the risk, installing a single pole 20amp breaker in a QOB panel and tying in a 12 AWG is much less of a risk than pulling 500MCM through energised 480 volt switch gear. You need to use common sense.
 
We're required to suit up prior to working in or on energized circuits.At some facilities, we need a permit to enter an energized panel,switch board or mcc.After review, we either suit up to work it energized or suit up to turn all the appropiate breakers off.Most of the time when allowed to turn off, it's at premium time.We've had to wait months to install a bucket already because of production.It also takes a few hours to fill out all the paperwork required to get the permits.
Rick
 
RUWired said:
We're required to suit up prior to working in or on energized circuits.At some facilities, we need a permit to enter an energized panel,switch board or mcc.After review, we either suit up to work it energized or suit up to turn all the appropiate breakers off.Most of the time when allowed to turn off, it's at premium time.We've had to wait months to install a bucket already because of production.It also takes a few hours to fill out all the paperwork required to get the permits.
Rick
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Try that here your no longer needed.Shut down for poco work yes or for major panel work yes but simply adding a circuit or changing a breaker no
 
It is forbidden by all union companys
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Interesting. That makes sense.


to do so for your employer only puts your life at risk and money in your owners pocket
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ONLY?


Life is not that black and white. Shut it down when it makes sense. Obviously you can work hot panels safely. It is done every day. We have to learn when to make the call.

I'm not shy about making that call but I'm not going to shut a business down or work weekend/nights to add a circuit.
 
220/221 said:
Life is not that black and white. Shut it down when it makes sense. Obviously you can work hot panels safely. It is done every day. We have to learn when to make the call.

I'm not shy about making that call but I'm not going to shut a business down or work weekend/nights to add a circuit.
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Actually, this issue is black and white from an OSHA perspective, and they are the ones who will be handing out the fines when someone gets killed or injured. You are certainly entitled to work however you want, however, if someone is killed or injured on your watch from working live, OSHA is not going to listen to "But I couldn't shut the power off because of (insert whatever reason you have here.)"
 
Whenever anyone brings up working hot, someone else always brings up OSHA. They must have some sort of pr division or something that operates on our subconsious. OSHA this OSHA that, bah humbug on OSHA. Apparently they only show up when something bad happens anyway. And if you counted up the number of times the posters on this thread alone have worked hot vs. the number of times those same people have gotten anything burned off, I bet the first number would be higher than you'd imagine and the second number would be very near zero. Flame away, I asked for it this time...
 
jerm said:
OSHA this OSHA that, bah humbug on OSHA. Apparently they only show up when something bad happens anyway. And if you counted up the number of times the posters on this thread alone have worked hot vs. the number of times those same people have gotten anything burned off, I bet the first number would be higher than you'd imagine and the second number would be very near zero.
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Yes, we've all worked hot, myself included. It doesn't make it right. The fact that we've all worked live doesn't change the fact that OSHA will be investigating and handing out large fines when a serious or fatal accident happens.

Furthermore, a company can never live down the reputation it gets when someone dies under its charge. That alone can and has put companies out of business.
 
220/221 said:
Interesting.
I'm not shy about making that call but I'm not going to shut a business down or work weekend/nights to add a circuit.
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A good friend of mine thought exactly like that. He HAD a customer (a friend of his family) who just could not shut down - ice making factory - well he decided to send his man there to do it live, even after being advised not to.


His man was in the hospital for weeks...and the ice factory was shut down for days during the OSHA visit.


Of course the "family friend" is sueing him. His worker is sueing him and OSHA is his new partner.

My friend, yes he and I are still friends, has closed his business. He is awaiting all of bombs to drop and went to work for another company.


Whatever the outcome is, we all take chances. It is not up to us to know when the odds will go against us, it is just a game of russian rulette and we hope the gun is pointed at someone else when it goes off.

I will not argue the point...I just wish you good luck!
 
peter d said:
Furthermore, a company can never live down the reputation it gets when someone dies under its charge. That alone can and has put companies out of business.
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So true. What was formerly the largest electrical contractor in my area, truly in business for just shy of 100 years now, is now down to just a couple trucks. They had a bad blow-up about 15 years ago in a major department store that hurt two guys bad and closed the store for months and months. The company never recovered to its former glory.
 
it is just a game of russian rulette
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My only point was that, unlike russian roulette (with a 1 in 6 chance of blowing your brains out) the odds are in your favor. Even if all of us came up with one company that has gone out of business becuase of it, even if we all could name a person who was killed working live (and we can't) compare that to the number of businesses still in business with guys working hot on occassion and compare to the number of guys working hot and not getting killed. It's all a numbers game. If you play the lottery, your odds of winning are probably somewhere near your odds of getting killed or injured working hot, unless your judgement is just way off, like someone said, pulling 500 mcm's into a live panel! But adding a 20a or wiring up a ballast at 120v? If you're comfortable with the risk then let that be your guide. If I'm on a fiberglass ladder and I'm not grounded, and I'm SURE I'm not grounded, then I'll change out the ballast hot. (not a 277 though, that increases the risk beyond my comfort level)
 
I understand your point Mr. Jerm. I work panels hot more often than I should. My hands are steady and I am confident. But it only takes one mistake. So in the last year or so I have cut down live work to almost nothing. As far as OSHA goes, when you hear of General Contractors in my area getting fines of 5,000.00 to 20,000.00 you decide that's not for me. It may be long odds of them catching you but if they do the price is too high.
 
A good friend of mine thought exactly like that. He HAD a customer (a friend of his family) who just could not shut down - ice making factory - well he decided to send his man there to do it live, even after being advised not to.
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Any details other than it was hot? There is more to the story than the fact it was energized.



In MY opinion you shouldn't add a switch to a 1000 amp section while it's hot. Ive done it before and I doubt I'd do it again. I would NEVER send one of my guys to do it.

In my opinion it is safe to replace a 120v switch hot. If one of my guys didn't want to do it, fine. Find the circuit and turn it off.

OSHA makes the rule because it is too difficult to spell out the different cases where it would be accepyable to work hot. Even then they leave it open to interpetation.
 
Would be nice to never work things hot but the reality for us employees is our company will replace us if we don't. I probably should start keeping a pair of nice leather gloves for when i need to do hot work. I know PPE, rated, g'luck getting the boss to invest in anything like that.
 
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