working spaced and panel in bathroom

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

joebeadg

Member
Location
Eustis fl
I often work in older homes and I know about working spaces required around loadcenters, and that its a violation to install one in a bathroom. But what about replacing an excisting one in an old house thats in a bathroom. Second question, some old homes don't have the required working space around the panel. Since its excisting, is it a violation to replace it? You know, it could make a job much more costly.
 
Depends on what they enforce in your jurisdiction. Around here we have the Rehab Code that would permit the new panel to go right back in the old location even if is now non-complaint for a new installation.
 
Around here, I believe that if you touch it you can't leave it in a condition that violates the current code. But much depends on the extent of the changes being made at the facility. Check with your local jurisdiction.
 
When asking your AHJ they may ask for proof that the panel was installed in that location where code allowed and permitted at the time. That nothing new has affected working space.

Be prepared to answer this.
 
Sierrasparky said:
When asking your AHJ they may ask for proof that the panel was installed in that location where code allowed and permitted at the time. That nothing new has affected working space.

Be prepared to answer this.
Click to expand...

Yep, and look inside the panel for a date stamp. If it's old enough to predate a code restriction, it may help a case for in-place replacement, but if it's newer that's gonna make it nearly impossible to prove it was originally compliant.

I've watched inspectors disprove the, "it's original to the house" claim countless times with date-stamped items like drywall, plywood and plumbing fixtures.

Edited to add: this thread mentions that NEC 1993 is when panels were restricted from bathrooms, in case this becomes relevant: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=117896
 
Last edited:
Craigv said:
Yep, and look inside the panel for a date stamp. If it's old enough to predate a code restriction, it may help a case for in-place replacement, but if it's newer that's gonna make it nearly impossible to prove it was originally compliant.

I've watched inspectors disprove the, "it's original to the house" claim countless times with date-stamped items like drywall, plywood and plumbing fixtures.

Edited to add: this thread mentions that NEC 1993 is when panels were restricted from bathrooms, in case this becomes relevant: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=117896
Click to expand...
But unless you have something like the already mentioned "rehab code", most places you may be allowed to add branch circuits to existing loadcenter but will be required to move loadcenter out of the bathroom if you are replacing the load center.
 
kwired said:
But unless you have something like the already mentioned "rehab code", most places you may be allowed to add branch circuits to existing loadcenter but will be required to move loadcenter out of the bathroom if you are replacing the load center.
Click to expand...

My post intended to address cases where the date of a prior replacement of a panel might be a factor in whether the panel can remain in place at all. If the panel post-dates a code restriction, the AHJ might require removal regardless of intention to replace it.
 
Craigv said:
My post intended to address cases where the date of a prior replacement of a panel might be a factor in whether the panel can remain in place at all. If the panel post-dates a code restriction, the AHJ might require removal regardless of intention to replace it.
Click to expand...
Which is basically what said rehab code does. Otherwise NEC is pretty clear - no overcurrent devices in the bathroom, replacing an existing panel in a bathroom in most places in a no go unless there is such rehab code. Replacing a panel without proper 110.26 working clearances is also no go in most places unless there is such rehab code. Not installing AFCI protection (where current code calls for it) is no go without amendments or rehab codes as a general rule.
 
kwired said:
Which is basically what said rehab code does. Otherwise NEC is pretty clear - no overcurrent devices in the bathroom, replacing an existing panel in a bathroom in most places in a no go unless there is such rehab code. Replacing a panel without proper 110.26 working clearances is also no go in most places unless there is such rehab code. Not installing AFCI protection (where current code calls for it) is no go without amendments or rehab codes as a general rule.
Click to expand...

And I haven't disputed any of this. All I suggested is that if the date of installation is required by an AHJ, most panels have a date stamped inside the box.
 
Craigv said:
And I haven't disputed any of this. All I suggested is that if the date of installation is required by an AHJ, most panels have a date stamped inside the box.
Click to expand...
Not here. More recent years might have a inspection sticker with a date of inspection.

Dwelling units were not even inspected here before about 1992 or so. Some installers may have marked with an install date here and there, some equipment may have a manufactured date marked on it, but you don't necessarily know how long it was until it was installed.

Some places they were a lot more strict on codes, permits and inspections and tracking what has been done long before they were in other places.

My inspectors won't care when a panel was installed, but if I am replacing it, the replacement can not be in a bathroom - doesn't matter if original would have been code compliant at time of installation. Like it or not it is a simple rule, and is what NEC says.
 
kwired said:
Not here. More recent years might have a inspection sticker with a date of inspection.

Dwelling units were not even inspected here before about 1992 or so. Some installers may have marked with an install date here and there, some equipment may have a manufactured date marked on it, but you don't necessarily know how long it was until it was installed.

Some places they were a lot more strict on codes, permits and inspections and tracking what has been done long before they were in other places.

My inspectors won't care when a panel was installed, but if I am replacing it, the replacement can not be in a bathroom - doesn't matter if original would have been code compliant at time of installation. Like it or not it is a simple rule, and is what NEC says.
Click to expand...

There's a disconnect in communication here, and I'm not sure where but apologize for my part of it. My point was simply that the date stamped inside most panelboard boxes might be useful in a case where install date is a factor.

As I stated, it *can't* prove a panel pre-dated the NEC restriction, but it can absolutely prove it post-dates the restriction....if the box was mfg'd after 1993, it couldn't have been a compliant installation unless a local code was in effect.

That can help sell an owner on moving it rather than attempting an argument w/the AHJ to replace the box in what in my opinion is a ridiculous location. The OP seems reluctant to sell a relocation, and I understand it's a coctly job, but it's for very good reasons.
 
Craigv said:
There's a disconnect in communication here, and I'm not sure where but apologize for my part of it. My point was simply that the date stamped inside most panelboard boxes might be useful in a case where install date is a factor.

As I stated, it *can't* prove a panel pre-dated the NEC restriction, but it can absolutely prove it post-dates the restriction....if the box was mfg'd after 1993, it couldn't have been a compliant installation unless a local code was in effect.

That can help sell an owner on moving it rather than attempting an argument w/the AHJ to replace the box in what in my opinion is a ridiculous location. The OP seems reluctant to sell a relocation, and I understand it's a coctly job, but it's for very good reasons.
Click to expand...
Ok, I agree it can prove something like that.
 
Craigv said:
All I suggested is that if the date of installation is required by an AHJ, most panels have a date stamped inside the box.
Click to expand...

The date stamp inside the box may not be the original install date. It could have been replaced legally at a latter date if it was considered grandfathered in.

Some jurisdictions will grandfather a panel change as a repair but not a new service because this would be new construction.
 
Craigv said:
The stamp I'm referring to is a manufacturing date stamp.
Click to expand...

What growler is saying, I think, is that although the manufacturing date stamp may set an early limit on when that panel was installed, it may not be the original panel in that location. Maybe not likely, but certainly possible, especially if the original panel was one that was replaced for safety reasons. The applicable code would be, IMHO, that of the original installation.
 
GoldDigger said:
What growler is saying, I think, is that although the manufacturing date stamp may set an early limit on when that panel was installed, it may not be the original panel in that location. Maybe not likely, but certainly possible, especially if the original panel was one that was replaced for safety reasons. The applicable code would be, IMHO, that of the original installation.
Click to expand...

You are correct. I ran into this situation not long ago. Panel in bath, original install 1973, panel replaced sometime in the last 20 years. In that area 20 years ago they would not even have needed a permit to replace the panel in the same location as a repair (looks like that's all they did).

I agree that until they change something, new service or whatever it would have to be called an original install.

I informed the customer that a home inspector could still write it up because those are not code inspections and it still may be a problem when selling the house.
 
growler said:
You are correct. I ran into this situation not long ago. Panel in bath, original install 1973, panel replaced sometime in the last 20 years. In that area 20 years ago they would not even have needed a permit to replace the panel in the same location as a repair (looks like that's all they did).

I agree that until they change something, new service or whatever it would have to be called an original install.

I informed the customer that a home inspector could still write it up because those are not code inspections and it still may be a problem when selling the house.
Click to expand...
Even if permits aren't required for certain things, whatever current code is still normally applies. You won't get a rejection from an inspector because there was no inspection, but you are taking on additional liability risk if not following current code.
 
My post regarding mfd date stamps was in response to this post:

Sierrasparky said:
When asking your AHJ they may ask for proof that the panel was installed in that location where code allowed and permitted at the time. That nothing new has affected working space.

Be prepared to answer this.
Click to expand...

I simply gave one means of determining this. The mfg date can definitively eliminate some panels from consideration.
 
kwired said:
Even if permits aren't required for certain things, whatever current code is still normally applies. You won't get a rejection from an inspector because there was no inspection, but you are taking on additional liability risk if not following current code.
Click to expand...

I used to think like that. But everything that's done doesn't have to meet current code.
Repairs on existing installations is one of those things that can be grandfathered.

The only reason I mentioned that they may not have needed a permit was because there probably are not any records of the exact date of repair or panel change out.

The original installation did meet code and unless someone does some new construction that involves the service the county won't/can't make them change the location.

I personally hate it when a panel is in a bathroom especially when there is going to be a washer in front of it and not enough head room to start with. Even the foreman of the remodeling job wanted it changed ( we flipped one around on another job) but the man who signs the checks said no.

I have never installed a panel in a bathroom or even replaced a panel in a bathroom. But just because a panel is located in a bathroom doesn't mean anyone can force the owner to change it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top