working with wye and going to delta

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carson1111

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Harrisburg, PA
I work at an old manufacturing plant which has 3ph 240v wye. We have a need for 3ph 480 volt to run a new piece of equipment. My plans were to reverse connect a 112.5Kva step down transformer that would give me the 240v to 480v but am concerned with the wye element of our current wiring scheme.
I'm running a 40hp motor and heating bands on an extruder, I'm not sure if delta is even an issue for the equipment. What should I watch out for when wiring or do I need another transformer to transition from wye to delta and then step it up to 480v?
 
What type of step down transformer, an off the shelf 480 VAC delta to 120/208 VAC wye?

Is the existing distribution system 240 VAC Delta or 240/120 VAC center tapped/high leg (and a variety of other names) Delta?

I'm so not sure for permanent hook up this is the way to go. At a 4 to 1 ratio for the transformer I mentioned in line one, you'd end up with higher voltages that you wanted, if this is center tapped I believe you would end up with 480, 832, 480. If this was 240 VAC delta you'd have 960,960,960, SOMEONE CHECK ME PLEASE on this one. Do not take these voltages as gospel untill others have chimed in PLEASE.

Why not order the proper transformer and avoid an ungrounded 480 VAC delta or a corner grounded 480 VAC delta (and possible other issues. I say this because at least 3 to 4 times a year we get a frantic call from an electrician or facility management folks because their building is going haywire. When then find a reversed wired transformer.

Just my opinion BUT the right part for the right job.
 
I would like to echo Brian?s concerns. I do not understand the concept of a ?240 volt WYE.? I am not at all certain that you have correctly described your current system.

If there were a transformer with a WYE secondary that has 240 volts phase to phase, then its phase to ground voltage would be 139 volts. What good would that be to anyone? I hope you do not run any 120 volt equipment from a 139 volt source.

I suspect that what you have is a 240/120 volt three phase system (center tap delta, for example). If that is correct, then you can get a delta-delta transformer with a 2:1 turns ratio, and wire its lower voltage winding as the primary.

But do not take a standard 480 delta to 120/208V WYE transformer, and reverse wire it. Brian is correct in saying that it would give you a 4:1 increase in voltage. You would have 960 volts, and not 480 volts.
 
Charlie: I totally missed that I THOUGHT he wrote 240 delta, thats how thing really get messed up. I think it was a mental reading thing I just assumed delta as I read the post...Glad that was not a bid or set of specs.
 
Wye to Delta through transformer

Wye to Delta through transformer

Sorry if I've confused the issue and thank you for the time you've already spent. I'll try my best to rephase the issue. I had a master electrician look at our supply. He measured leg to leg and said" you have 240v 3 phase".
One other person in plant maintenance dept. cautioned me to remember that it is wye. So this is the supply as I know it.

Needing 480v 3ph, I was told by the transformer company I could use his 2:1 step down transformer in a reverse hook up. Essentially applying what we have now to the secondary and the primary would read 480v. Again I may not understand a definition of wye properly and when working with 480 at 200 amps, I want to be clear!

If this still paints only a partial picture of my situation, maybe you can suggest what measurements I should take and I can post it tomorrow morning. Your responses are greatly appreciated.
 
1st I would check the electricians readings, too many of our brothers in Klein's make a MAJOR mistake and confuse 208 with 240. And yes masters are among this group, all a master license means, in many cases is the guy/gal had enough years to qualify and pass a test. THIS IS NOT A SLAM ON MASTERS JUST A FACT.

2nd I still would get a delta Wye transformer be it 208 to 277/489 or 240 to 277/480, IMO (and many here may disagree), it simplifies life after installation. if you use a Wye to delta you end up with an ungrounded XMFR or a corner grounded delta, this freaks out many electricians.


In item two I just assumed a Delta/Wye based upon the manufactures statements about step down in reverse.
 
Carson,

Based upon the thread so far and your forum profile, I presume that your question has been judged 'not DIY'. However your questions suggest to me that you do not yet have the background necessary to complete the installation you are considering. I'm going to bring a truth over from a DIY forum: electrical installations are all about the details, and we have no way of knowing which details that you do not understand, and which questions you don't even know enough to ask. We do not see what you are looking at, and have no way of pointing out 'got-yas' that would be obvious in person. The only thing that we can do is answer the questions that you present to us, maybe through in personal experience that we _guess_ is related, and hopefully give you enough pointers that you can go and fill in the holes in your own knowledge.

A coil in a transformer operates as a single phase device. It interacts with the alternating magnetic field of the core, and produces a single phase voltage between its two terminals. If connected in a closed circuit, current may flow through the coil. The 'primary' and 'secondary' coils do exactly the same thing; they are simply windings which interact with a magnetic field. The direction of current flow in the windings, and power flow through the transformer depends upon what is externally connected to the coils.

If you connect a source of power to the coil with more turns, and a load to the coil with fewer turns, then you have 'step down' transformer action. Connect the power to the coil with fewer turns, and the load to the coil with more turns, and you have 'step up' transformer action.

Three phase transformers are actually combinations of single phase transformers, connected together in different ways to provide the desired three phase voltage set.

The 'delta' connection means a set of three phase coils connected so that the schematic diagram looks like a triangle.

The 'wye' connection means a set of three phase coils connected so that the schematic diagram looks like a capital 'Y'.

The angles of the coils in the diagrams are not just to make the pictures, but actually to conceptually represent the phase angle of the voltage applied to the winding. This is of course, only approximate and representative, but it should help give you the idea of what is going on.

With a delta connected transformer set, there is no neutral for the three phase terminal voltages. _Some_ delta transformers will have a center tap on one of the coils, providing a neutral for the two terminals that share that coil.

With a wye connected transformer set, the 'common terminal' where all three coils are connected _is_ a neutral between all of the phase terminal voltages.

When a service is described as 'wye' or 'delta', that simply means the type of transformer connection in the secondary providing the service.

For reasons which I do not entirely understand, it is generally preferable that the transformer primary be delta connected. Wye connected primaries can be (and are) used, but delta primaries are preferred.

For reasons of safety and insulation system protection, it is generally preferable to use a _grounded_ secondary. This means that one of the terminals of the transformer set is intentionally connected to ground. In theory, _any_ terminal of the secondary could be grounded, but electrical code requires selecting the terminal which would minimize the voltage to ground of the other terminals. This means the neutral or the terminal closest to neutral.

Wye secondaries are desirable because they provide a nice solid neutral point for grounding. With a grounded wye system, all of the phase to ground voltages are the same, and minimized for a given voltage. However delta secondaries can certainly be used, and one of the 'phase' terminals of the secondary could even be grounded. This is called 'corner grounded delta', and is a safe and known approach to grounding. However it is uncommon enough to be confusing.

Non-standard grounding may cause issues with protective relays or with surge protective devices, and adjustment may be needed to do this.

'Ungrounded' systems may be used, however these present risks of insulation failure and undetected ground faults. Ungrounded systems are commonly used on entire plants, so that ground faults will not shut the process down. There are special code rules dedicated to ungrounded systems, and IMHO you should not use this for a single machine.

While it is entirely possible to have a 240V wye system, this would be _very_ uncommon. It is much more likely that you have a 240V delta service, possibly with a grounded center tap on one of the coils. The reason for this is to provide for 120V single phase loads. 240V with a center tapped coil provides this 120V as the voltage between the phase and center tap. This system is sometimes called 'high leg' delta, because the third phase terminal (the one that doesn't share the center tapped coil) ends up at 208V to ground. A true 240V wye service would not have 120V available anywhere, and instead would have 139V to ground.

The common 200V class wye service is 120/208, where you have three 120V coils connected 'wye' to provide 120V phase to ground, and 208V phase to phase.

Strangely, while 240V wye is very uncommon, 480V wye is quite common. This is provided with three 277V coils connected in wye, with 480V phase to phase. 277V lighting is quite common with these services. So you could either see 480V delta, or 480V wye.

A _very_ common transformer has a 480V delta connection as the primary input, and a 120/208V wye connection as the secondary output. These transformers are so common that they are often used 'in reverse' to provide 480V to a machine tool. However there are several problems with this arrangement. 1) The input doesn't have 'taps' to correctly adjust the input voltage. 2) The output doesn't have a nice neutral point to ground.

For your system, you could use a 480V delta to 240V delta transformer. This would again have the problem of no voltage adjustment taps, and no neutral on the secondary. For the loads that you describe, a neutral is not required, and you could presumably use a 480V corner grounded delta. Corner grounded delta requires that your circuit breakers and components all be rated for the full 480V to ground, which might make these components more expensive. As I said above, you probably don't want to deal with the issues of an ungrounded system.

Ideally you would get a 240V delta to 277/480V wye transformer, with voltage adjustment taps on the 240V side. This would provide a neutral point for grounding, and permit you to use normal 277/480V breakers.

You could not use a common 480V to 120/208V transformer in reverse. The supply voltage would be too high, saturating the core and leading to excessive heating, and with no taps you could not adjust for this.

-Jon
 
Not looking to take this back to the begining - But why go down then back up? What is feeding the transformer you already have? Feed at that voltage for your 480 wye or delta. A wye would accomadate other uses if the need ever arose, but delta would handle motor loads more efficiently - the choice is yours.... But it sound to me that there would be a lot of lost energy feeding one transformer to drop down, and another back up.... It doesn't sound as though this motor and heaters will be a constant load?

If this is fed by distribution voltage as a single service - ask the POCO for an additional service. (Chocolate and vanilla - one of each) Then your worries are over.... 'Cause once you have one 480 load - get ready to add some more - hey even swap out some existing stuff to it... If they dont serve up sundays so to speak, have 'em swap out to 480 wye, and re-feed your 120/240 or 120/208 for the measured load+. But you might want to nail down what that is before going any further. :rolleyes:
 
carson1111 said:
If this still paints only a partial picture of my situation, maybe you can suggest what measurements I should take and I can post it tomorrow morning. Your responses are greatly appreciated.

All of them...... A-C,A-B,B-C, A-N, B-N, C-N (All to ground too just to be absolutely sure...)

240,240,240 - 120,120,~208 = Delta "high leg" (That 208 could be on B or C!) If it's this one is it open or closed?
208,208,208 - 120,120,120 = wye
240,240,240 - 0 to any one of them to ground = corner grounded delta
 
I'm quoting from a PM because the message really is relevant to the thread, and then answering here.
CARSON1111 said:
I measured each leg and found the following:
leg#1 to ground 120v
leg#2 to ground 120v
leg#3 to ground 208v
leg#1 to leg#2,#1 to #3 and #2 to #3 all 240v

I think this is in essence the definition of WYE.

Actually, those voltages indicate a 'high leg' delta system. This means that the transformer secondary is connected 'delta', however one of the coils has been center tapped to provide a grounded 'neutral'. The reason for this sort of system is to provide 240V for three phase loads, as well as 120/240V single phase power for all of the 120V general purpose loads.

CARSON1111 said:
Why would someone choose a WYE versus a Delta format? I've found that rebuilt transformers offer a substantial savings and come with a guarantee. This is the motive behind the company's approach. Hard to believe but the investment for 2 used (certified) transformers is less than 1 custom made by 1/3.

Wye provides a common to all three phase terminals. This common can be grounded, which minimized the 'net' voltage between all of the phases and ground. I am also a science type who has to know what the electricians are doing, rather than an electrician myself, and for everything that I have contact with, we use WYE secondaries. Note that even with WYE service, the transformer primary almost always should be a delta. You use WYE to provide a neutral point, and a three phase _load_ doesn't need the neutral point.

A grounded common on your 480V side is almost certainly the best system in terms of grounding.

CARSON1111 said:
So I think I have 3 options:
1)Buy a transformer for 208 WYE to step up to 480v delta , if delta is even necessary for the extruder.

2)Buy a transformer to convert my 208 wye to 240 delta and a second transformer to do the straight step up 240 delta to 480 delta.

3)Buy a transformer to step 208 WYE to 480 WYE

I would try to get a transformer with a 240V primary and a 480Y/277 WYE secondary.

You should also consider E57's point: you might be able to get the utility to supply a 480Y/277 service. The distinction here will be economic; if I had a piece of equipment running 'now and then' then I'd go with my own transformer; if this is going to run 24x7 then you probably want the utility to supply the correct voltage.

-Jon
 
winnie said:
You should also consider E57's point: you might be able to get the utility to supply a 480Y/277 service. The distinction here will be economic; if I had a piece of equipment running 'now and then' then I'd go with my own transformer; if this is going to run 24x7 then you probably want the utility to supply the correct voltage.

-Jon

I'd also consider the customer sit down and plan for the future at this point, as without a bit of consumer education now (adding a new voltage system) you can almost put money on the next piece of large equipment showing up 480 as well - especially in a factory type environ... They need to know the limitations of having a 'one off' dedicated power supply or sizing a new service too small. If they figure the next several large assets they need are going to be 480 - plan ahead now.
 
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